Instruments, Cost & the Placebo Effect

[Don Grieser]

A banjo player I knew got hooked on those placebo pills. He finally quit but it didn't make any difference.

[DougC]

I thought we'd covered almost every aspect of this topic, but... one notion piqued my interest and that is different 'levels' of quality for levels of skill. This situation has a very long history with violins, , but other instruments have similar levels where a better instrument is needed. I suppose self taught people have less awareness of the need for a better instrument. Maybe not. With a teacher however one goes through different levels and he/she has the teacher's opinion of weather the problem is the student or the instrument.

[JeffD]

I thought we'd covered almost every aspect of this topic, but... one notion piqued my interest and that is different 'levels' of quality for levels of skill..

Well my opinion - throw it out of your mind.

I mean, one should always get the very best mandolin one can afford and appreciate. There is no "deserving", there is no level of skill appropriate to a given quality of mandolin. The next level should always be shoot the moon, the best you can do.

My first mandolin ever was the only mandolin I ever might have "outgrown", or ever will. It was destroyed in a hot car before I was even a very serious player. My second mandolin was more mandolin than I will ever be able to play, as has been everyone since. The problem with me has always been me, and not ever the instrument.

A great mandolin is inspiring, feels comfortable, urges you on, rewards doing it right. The performance anxiety is a motivator too, but after my first mandolin, I figured out I will never be anywhere as good as the instrument I am playing.

May that always be the case.

[Don Grieser]

Right on, JeffD.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I was told many years ago by a colleague at work who was a very,very fine musician & multi-instrumentalist (Classical),that the easiest & 'best' instrument to learn on,was ''the best''. Thinking about it,it makes sense,but only if you're very serious regarding 'wanting to play' & become as good as you can be.

As we all know,the 'best' instruments,are usually well set up & easier to play,& easier (after a while) to get the best tone from. Altogether a very satisfying experience for an aspiring musician,they make you want to play & improve. I never made as much progress,even after close to 20 years of playing banjo,as i did when i bought my Stelling banjo. I couldn't wait to play it & when i did,it was for hours at a time. For the very first time,i was getting the sound from my own banjo that i heard from professional players,
Ivan

[OneChordTrick]

I think Ivan has pretty much summed it up!

A couple of observations from my own experience.

• Many years ago I tried to learn to play the flute. Could barely get a sound out of it but found my teacher's easy to play. Needless to say I soon gave up.
• Yesterday I sold my "starter" mandolin. When I tuned it up and played prior to it being collected I was shocked at how bad it sounded compared to its replacement. But it served it's purpose once set up it was as easy to play as my new instrument and it gave me enough to realise that the mandolin is something that I want to pursue and invest money in.

I think Ivan's key point

but only if you're very serious

is the most pertinent. If you're certain that it's something you want to do buy the best that you can possibly afford, if not buy an affordable starter instrument, accept its limitations and have a view to upgrading when skills/finances justify.

[Eric Platt]

I probably shouldn't speak on this topic. But I'm in the camp that one finds the instrument (or multiple instruments) that speaks to the person to make music. And forget the price. A good musician uses the limitations of an instrument to their advantage. Now, if the sound you hear only comes from a very expensive instrument, fine. But not everyone is looking for the same sound. The tone I'm looking for is more likely found in a mid priced oval or round hole mandolin.

Ah, that's too much rambling. Folks should just buy and play what they want.

[Redfin]

I agree, its not all placebo. I was able to play a lot of nice mandolins at Kaufmann's Kamp, including many from reputable, boutique makers. I wouldn't have traded my gibson A-9 for any of them. In 2005 I paid $1265.00 for it. Which for me was a princely sum. In 2010 I bought an F-model Gibson Jam-Master (prototype I was told, doesn't have the radius or the wider fretboard and its to me an ugly flat black color.) It does have the Jam Master label and is signed by David Harvey. It sounds great and has a chunky neck that I love, but it doesn't sound as good as the A-9. I own several imports that are a lot older and not impressive at all in their tone. One exception is a JBovier that sounds and plays well, but doesn't have the tone or volume of either of the Gibson instruments. I have played some Gibsons that weren't up to par also. I'd like to try some others such as a Collings and a few others.

[Bertram Henze]

I probably shouldn't speak on this topic.

But if the topic speaks to you, you better answer

I am a strong believer in that the instrument chooses the musician, from my own experience (bad with violin, good with mandolin).
The violin I learned to play in my youth never spoke to me (you may say it turned away in disgust every time I opened the case), but I was forced to become a mediocre player. When I left it behind me and got hooked on Irish music, I tried one last time to take it out of its case again and try if I could play that, at least (if not the boring Classical stuff I had been trained on) - but no. The first creaking noise from the bow made it totally clear to me that this was not it. Later, I walked by a music shop and a mandolin spoke to me, through the shop window glass - you guess the rest.

Mind you, the problem back then was not the price of the violin - it was cheap and squeaky, and my teachers repeatedly said I should get a better one, but all violins sounded cheap and squeaky to me, and playing a teacher's violin for a change revealed nothing.

The violin hangs on a nail on the wall today, with one E string in place but without a bridge, and something is rattling inside if I shake it (maybe it's the bridge or, more probably, the soundpost), and its crippled, muted state is a profound solace to me every day.

Too much rambling, yes, but I couldn't help it. And yes again: folks should buy and play what they want.

[stevedenver]

I was told many years ago by a colleague at work who was a very,very fine musician & multi-instrumentalist (Classical),that the easiest & 'best' instrument to learn on,was ''the best''. Thinking about it,it makes sense,but only if you're very serious regarding 'wanting to play' & become as good as you can be.

As we all know,the 'best' instruments,are usually well set up & easier to play,& easier (after a while) to get the best tone from. Altogether a very satisfying experience for an aspiring musician,they make you want to play & improve. I never made as much progress,even after close to 20 years of playing banjo,as i did when i bought my Stelling banjo. I couldn't wait to play it & when i did,it was for hours at a time. For the very first time,i was getting the sound from my own banjo that i heard from professional players,
Ivan

I couldnt agree more.
Its as if, with a great instrument at the start, there is commitment, no excuses, and more than occasionally one gets amazing sounds.

I recently bought a used deering kruger banjo, and began to learn banjo. (Well, i pretty much know open g and clawhammer from guitar, so i had an idea i would continue to love and play the darn thing).

I am daily smitten with the tonal beauty,(yup its a gawdam banjo and it changed all of my preconceptions about banjo tones , and applications, kinda like Dawg did for me and mando. it sounds amazing, even in my hands). The great sound, in turn , makes me play for hours, and, feel a bond with this tool.

Did this too when i restarted playing mando, with a gibby fern. It too gave me a sound and feel and look that i loved. Not plinky, harsh, truncated notes.

[NursingDaBlues]

I really don’t have much of a dog in this hunt. Mine is simply an additional point of view.

Have you ever noticed some musicians that show up on stage with an army of guitars? Or basses? For clarity, I’m not talking about performers who play different classes of instruments (i.e. guitar, mandolin, accordion, etc.); but have multiples of one type of instrument. These musicians may rotate through their instruments a couple of times through a performance; or maybe only use one or two. Yes, some of the instruments may offer an alternative tuning, but others don’t. So, what’s the purpose of having so many on stage?

Well, there’s probably a small handful of us that more than likely approach instruments differently than the rest of the world. So I’ll try to explain my take on this approach. First, though, while I play mandolin and banjo, my primary instrument is guitar. Second, I’ve been paid for my playing for around 50 years.

What really drives my selection of an instrument stems from my work as a sideman. As a sideman, the instrument I play (and how I play) has only one purpose: to please the frontman (i.e. the person that hired me). If the frontman prefers the sound of maple (or mahogany, or koa, or rosewood, or jumbo, or dreadnaught, or single “0,” etc.) then that’s what I’ll play. If he/she asks what will best support the song, the vocals, the lead instrument, or the rest of the ensemble, I’ll offer my best recommendation based on what we think will work best. My job is to complement, to blend, to support. It is not to depend on a soundman to do that. It is not to walk in with a banjo buster as my only instrument.

It’s not unusual for me carry a half-dozen assorted guitars into a session with someone I’ve not worked with before.

With this philosophy, I personally can’t get wrapped up in an instrument du jour. Sure, I may have a guitar/mandolin/banjo that I really enjoy hearing and playing, but when I’m hired for a gig, my preferences go out the window.

So, when shopping for an instrument, I tend to set aside commentary extolling the virtues of bracing, wood types, scale, and other features. While I recognize what each is capable of offering, I only allow design features to create an interest – not a buying decision. What influences my purchase is the instrument’s voice. I really don’t care if it’s a heralded pre-war model or a current signature series; scalloped or forward-shifted; one from a production line or the work of a given luthier who’s at the top of his game. If it has the voice that I want, I’ll go for it; if it doesn’t, I won’t.

That’s why my stable is composed of various designs and sizes of Martin, Gibson (with a couple of banjos that started out as Gibsons), Epiphone, Weber, Ome, and other brands (including a 1966 plywood Kay guitar). Some are vintage; others are modern. Some are fairly expensive; others were more modestly priced; and a couple have been in my family for quite a while. With the exception of the family instruments, each one was purchased to fulfill a specific purpose.

In a 2001 interview, Norman Blake said “I don’t feel that any one guitar does everything.” (It’s probable that Mr. Blake included mandolins in that belief based on the number of mandolins he reported owning at that time.) I agree with his sentiment. However, most individuals really can’t afford to have multiple instruments. So, if a person is to have one instrument, that instrument should cover as many bases as possible. It should definitely not restrict or pigeonhole. While so many “ooh and ah” over custom, limited edition, and boutique instruments, there’s a lot of beauty in the standard models; and there’s a lot of utility. The same can be said for entry-level brands and models. One should never discount them either.

So when I’m looking for a particular “sound,” I’ll walk into a music store and “play” the wall. New, used. Entry level, top-of-the-line. Everything’s fair game. It may take some time and some trips to various stores, but I usually find the sound that will make me – and my client – happy.

[Cliff Seruntine]

I thought we'd covered almost every aspect of this topic, but... one notion piqued my interest and that is different 'levels' of quality for levels of skill.

I used to buy and sell violins, and I can tell you, much of that concept is a marketing scheme. Once you reach the point of a quality violin (which in Canada starts around $1000, give or take a few hundred depending on marketing forces), it's all very subjective. But it does convince people they need to buy extraordinarily expensive instruments.

I'll add that it used to be different. That was before the market was flooded with very good, factory made instruments coming out of Asia and East Europe. It's just not the same anymore. Past a certain price tag, a person is either paying for bling or ego, or got hooked on the marketing hype.

[Jess L.]

... if your playing is bad, you can always blame it on your cheap instrument. ...

Probably a possibility, alright.

I haven't noticed myself doing that with instruments. Instrument selection nowadays is based on what I can afford (old, retired, fixed income).

But I admit that it's sometimes a tempting thought process with regards to tech gadgets, including some music-related items. Most such gadgets I can't afford anyway, but even those within range are sometimes intimidating...

There's nothing like some high-tech wonder-gadget to make users look/feel stupid, if the user can't figure the device out or make it work right.

Example: A month or two ago, when I was considering buying the new & improved Peterson HD strobe clip tuner, for a minute or two I envisioned scenarios of people seeing the Peterson clipped onto the peghead of one of my instruments and they'd be thinking something like:

"Jeez, she's got that expensive new strobe tuner that's supposed to be super accurate and easy to use, and yet the darn mandolin still sounds out of tune. She must be a really bad musician!"

But that thought didn't persist, and after reading reviews, I decided to buy the new tuner anyway. Turns out it actually is easier to use than my previous tuners, so I'm actually more likely to be in tune now. Or, closer to being in tune, anyway (setup has a lot to do with it too).

Point being, even though I don't think this way too often, I can still kind of understand how some people might be a little put off by high-end stuff because then people would expect too much, and unrealistic expectations can lead to disappointment. Not sure if that's "fear of failure" or "fear of success", maybe two sides of the same coin? Ouch my head hurts, this is getting way too close to, like, philosophy or somethin', not my specialty.

[Jess L.]

... Are you comfortable with 5, 10, 20, 50, 250 dollar bottle of wine for daily consumption? ...

Wine, you say? Every day? Nah, here's what that sounds like (actually it was whisky, really good expensive stuff too, during seasonal winter layoff where I had a few weeks off work) ... me in 1982 trying to drunkenly multi-track two instruments without any proper equipment - somewhat on-topic here since one of the instruments was a super nice vintage Gibson mandola, while the other instrument was the bottom-of-the-barrel plywood Kay mandolin that I'd first learned to play mandolin on - but both played while drunk! Cover your ears, pretty bad stuff!


(or direct link)
(Actually the playing isn't the worst part, some of the awful sound comes from the ridiculously-bad recording conditions.)

... Doesn't really address the "placebo effect".

I think "the herd effect" may be more apropos. I want to own the same mando that so and so plays, 'cos shes my mando hero.

I mean, this really could be more a discussion of marketing psychology, huh?
Why do we want what we want? ...

Ah! Yes. Herd effect. Could be. A lot of the time, anyway.

You just reminded me of my dad's kinda-cool stories about not being a lemming and to not just automatically follow the crowd because everyone else is. Lots of good advice there, of course.

[JeffD]

Point being, even though I don't think this way too often, I can still kind of understand how some people might be a little put off by high-end stuff because then people would expect too much, and unrealistic expectations can lead to disappointment.

Yea, performance anxiety. My second mandolin was (and is) a 1923 Gibson A2 snakehead. I really love that mandolin. When I first began to take it to jams I was a bit sheepish and apologetic in my behavior. I think that only exacerbated things, bringing attention to not only the mandolin, but how I felt about it.

It used to be one did not see that many mandolin players except in bluegrass circles. So the truth was that nobody knew I had a good mandolin, and some didn't probably even know it was a mandolin. Not quite as true today, but the differences between mandolins matters much more to mandolin players than anyone else. And its only the bluegrassers who have any kind of expectations when they see a mandolin.

I still say get as good as you can afford and appreciate. You will love it, even as its likely very few, if anyone, is going to appreciate what you have, or care.

I will never be able to do all the mandolin that thing is capable of. So realistically, I will never catch up to what should be expected of me taking out that mandolin. A mandolin capable of flying to the moon will not be impressed that you finally can get over the barn.

[Jeff Mando]

I'm slightly confused. Which is the placebo -- the inexpensive mandolin or the more expensive mandolin?

Now, a true placebo effect would be if your brown paper bag sounds as good as a mandolin, to your ears.....

the bag would have to be empty, of course.

[Randi Gormley]

I used to buy and sell violins, and I can tell you, much of that concept is a marketing scheme. Once you reach the point of a quality violin (which in Canada starts around $1000, give or take a few hundred depending on marketing forces), it's all very subjective. But it does convince people they need to buy extraordinarily expensive instruments.

I'll add that it used to be different. That was before the market was flooded with very good, factory made instruments coming out of Asia and East Europe. It's just not the same anymore. Past a certain price tag, a person is either paying for bling or ego, or got hooked on the marketing hype.

Well, you make a convincing case for violins. But I wonder if mandolins have reached this level. Fewer people play them, and while there are tons out there, it's no where near the number of violins, there are no where near the number of teachers and having a boutique instrument isn't way beyond someone's means -- I don't think a bank or historic society or college or whatever will purchase a high-end mandolin to loan out to deserving students as I believe happens with high-end violins. Certainly, placebo can be used to explain some people's attitudes and buying habits, but I don't think it's so for the majority of players. Mandolin is too niche an instrument to have any kind of universal standard that can be used to fool the educated public. my 2 cents, of course (although I believe I'm up to 6 cents at this point ....)

[DougC]

I'm slightly confused. Which is the placebo -- the inexpensive mandolin or the more expensive mandolin?

You all know the story about the three bears. So the right instrument is a 'clear headed' choice.

As a violin player I know that it is much easier to make a decent tone on any kind of mandolin.

I'm surprised that many don't include the insights of a more advanced player i.e. the teacher, as part of the decision making process. (When to buy a better instrument). There must be some mass placebo effect or identification with the tribe going on here. Ha, ha!

[mtucker]

I'm so grateful to have found the Mandolin Cafe in 2008 because its not only provided a first rate resource for all things mandolin but also bridged lasting friendships either virtual or otherwise that wouldn't exist without it!

I have to say, these are probably my least favorite Cafe topics because they are so subjective and absent of a real conclusion. There have been dozens just like this since joining. Try the search engine, it really works.

I'm totally in the camp of 'buy what makes you happy and what you feel you can afford' and leave the rest to others. Do your own blind testing, I'll help hand you the mandolins...but please don't ask for my opinion about price/value/placebo/blind test stuff, because at the end of the day...you and only you, matter!

There are literally dozens of moderately priced mandolins that play great and would make you happy forever. Let other's worry about their own value equation. Play what you brung and play it to the best of your ability!

Can we go back to discussing new tailpieces, buying a hard case, and adjusting our saddles... please? Thank you.

[Cliff Seruntine]

Well, you make a convincing case for violins. But I wonder if mandolins have reached this level. Fewer people play them, and while there are tons out there, it's no where near the number of violins, there are no where near the number of teachers and having a boutique instrument isn't way beyond someone's means -- I don't think a bank or historic society or college or whatever will purchase a high-end mandolin to loan out to deserving students as I believe happens with high-end violins. Certainly, placebo can be used to explain some people's attitudes and buying habits, but I don't think it's so for the majority of players. Mandolin is too niche an instrument to have any kind of universal standard that can be used to fool the educated public. my 2 cents, of course (although I believe I'm up to 6 cents at this point ....)

Also good points. One thing I observed, as well as some collector friends of mine, is that you can get into a decent mandolin for a bit less than fiddles or other more popular instruments. Myself, I like that the mandolin is unusual.

[Jim Garber]

I used to buy and sell violins, and I can tell you, much of that concept is a marketing scheme. Once you reach the point of a quality violin (which in Canada starts around $1000, give or take a few hundred depending on marketing forces), it's all very subjective. But it does convince people they need to buy extraordinarily expensive instruments.

I'll add that it used to be different. That was before the market was flooded with very good, factory made instruments coming out of Asia and East Europe. It's just not the same anymore. Past a certain price tag, a person is either paying for bling or ego, or got hooked on the marketing hype.

That sounds like more lower end sales to parents for their kids. Neither parents or kids are usually knowledgeable and they want to best for their kids, so will spend what they are told to by either sales people or teachers. I don't think you are talking about skilled players who are entering a musical career.

The mandolin market is much different because it is rarely an instrument taught in schools to young children.

[Cliff Seruntine]

That sounds like more lower end sales to parents for their kids. Neither parents or kids are usually knowledgeable and they want to best for their kids, so will spend what they are told to by either sales people or teachers. I don't think you are talking about skilled players who are entering a musical career.

The mandolin market is much different because it is rarely an instrument taught in schools to young children.

To a degree. I never sold instruments valued over $10,000. The best violin I felt I ever personally played was made by an unknown local hobbyist luthier, which I bought for $800. There is always the matter of how are instruments valued. I know how violins are bought and sold, and generally their values (though I've been out of that business for 10 years, things may have changed a little). Anyway, my only point when I wrote the OP is we shouldn't pay attention to prices when we buy instruments. As you might guess, I love the fable of the Ugly Duckling.

[Charlieshafer]

The one thing to remember regarding an instrument's shortcomings is that once you get to a level, you can use any instrument's qualities to your advantage. Art Tatum,the phenomenal jazz player, used to love going into speakeasies where he was to play, and go over the keyboard. As the pianos were usually in pretty rough shape, he'd love the challenge of transposing all his pieces to avoid using the keys that didn't work or were out of tune. So maybe that's sort of the placebo at the end of the rainbow: you're so good you don;t care about the instrument, you care about the music.

[Jim Garber]

My game at the big box music stores is to find the jewel among the low-priced instruments. There was a Chinese brand a few years back called Brownsville that made some nice flattop guitars and at one point they were being phased out at $89.

Recently in Guitar Center I found a solid wood 12 fret parlor guitar by Recording King for $300 then reduced to $200. I played that a few times. Definitely worth more than the price. My daughter wanted to play guitar and I found her yet another Recording King with a solid top for $100.

[sblock]

Just close your eyes and DRINK THE KOOL-AID.