Instruments, Cost & the Placebo Effect

[DougC]

The bass player Victor Wooten uses a zen description for levels of awareness in his workshops. It goes something like:

1. unconscious not knowing - blissful beginner,
2. conscious not knowing - player just plays what makes him/her happy,
3. conscious knowing - player realizes how much he/she needs to get good,
4. unconscious knowing- someone like Art Tatum who can do anything and create a blissful experience

[Jeff Mando]

So maybe that's sort of the placebo at the end of the rainbow: you're so good you don;t care about the instrument, you care about the music.

Well put. A similar thing happens on the photography forums. So much emphasis is on what camera and lens was used to achieve a certain look and the associated costs, when the goal is to create an amazing photo.

[Cliff Seruntine]

Well put. A similar thing happens on the photography forums. So much emphasis is on what camera and lens was used to achieve a certain look and the associated costs, when the goal is to create an amazing photo.

I do a lot of photography. I can certainly sympathize the sentiment. When I was getting a diploma in photography, it was one of the first things they taught us: It's not the camera, it's the photographer.

Yet, I never thought this topic would become so huge. I am glad many are just chatting about it, but I didn't think some would be angered or have their feelings hurt by the topic. I kind of wish I had never introduced the topic. My only point was don't worry about not being able to afford stuff, just make good music with what you have and it'll be fine.

[Charlieshafer]

I do a lot of photography. I can certainly sympathize the sentiment. When I was getting a diploma in photography, it was one of the first things they taught us: It's not the camera, it's the photographer.

Yet, I never thought this topic would become so huge. I am glad many are just chatting about it, but I didn't think some would be angered or have their feelings hurt by the topic. I kind of wish I had never introduced the topic. My only point was don't worry about not being able to afford stuff, just make good music with what you have and it'll be fine.

Eh, I don't think anyone got their nose that out of joint. It's a fun conversation with no end game, which is just fine. There are lots of folks here who get interested in a topic like this, get into it, but really mean nothing by it. That's the problem with writing on the internet. You're talking in your head when writing, but when the words get read by someone else, they misinterpret the flow and intent that's going on inside your head. In some cases, like mine, there's nothing going on inside their heads anyway, so there's no telling what comes out. It's a good, fun topic, good thread.

[Relio]

No one ever said there weren't quantitative differences in huge price leaps; this comparison you're making is pointless. It's more a question of keeping things in a relative price range, and many others here have said. You want to play a 10k instrument, that's great, but if you remove the names of the makers, and add some 5k and some 15k, make sure they all look the same in terms of inlays or other aesthetics, what would you pick? Does it really matter? Are you a better sounding player on a 15k instrument as opposed to a 5k? I'm pretty sure you won;t be. Again, as an example, when Mike Marshall was at my venue, and shifted back and forth between his Loar and Northfield, no one heard a difference.

The op asked difference between modest and extreme cost mandos. I’d say $700 is modest and $10,000 is extreme; therefore, my experience is not pointless:-)

[DougC]

The OP (original post-er) also said that he is a "mental health professional".

And he (Cliff) asked "How do we know if what we believe / perceive actually is?"

I would think a "mental health professional" already knows the answer. You ask someone who may have some experience in the field.

Well... that includes everyone on Mandolin Cafe!

Now I don't have any personal or political issues here. I'm sure Cliff is a great guy!

I suggest that we read a book called
"The Death of Expertise: The campaign against established knowledge and why it matters" by Tom Nichols (published in 2017)

[Cliff Seruntine]

Eh, I don't think anyone got their nose that out of joint. It's a fun conversation with no end game, which is just fine. There are lots of folks here who get interested in a topic like this, get into it, but really mean nothing by it. That's the problem with writing on the internet. You're talking in your head when writing, but when the words get read by someone else, they misinterpret the flow and intent that's going on inside your head. In some cases, like mine, there's nothing going on inside their heads anyway, so there's no telling what comes out. It's a good, fun topic, good thread.

Hah! Thanks for the laugh! I needed that.

Yeah, so much of what we say is in body language. The net always runs a risk of misunderstanding.

[Caleb]

Great thread...

Sometimes I think about the average mandolin player of the past, and of all the crummy catalog-style instruments he/she struggled with for a lifetime. I picture putting the average $300 (today's money) Kentucky, et al, into his/her hands. I'm sure that person would be blown away by the playability, tuning stability, quality of the build, finish, and sound. It's easy to forget how far along we've come in the world of acoustic instruments, and how complicated things have become due to our myriad of available choices.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I'm just glad none of us implied that the effort, pain and trouble Gilchrist, Monteleone, Kemnitzer &al. went through was absolutely pointless. Is it possible that the placebo effect is somewhat related to the phenomenon of sour grapes?

[grassrootphilosopher]

I'm totally in the camp of 'buy what makes you happy and what you feel you can afford' and leave the rest to others. .

I am with you! Whatever pleases the musician...

But... there´s an objective side to it. I think that quality cannot be denied. I certainly believe that there is a difference in sound (and also soundquality) that can be determined.

Like I said (probably in some other thread): You hear an instrument up front; then you go to another room and you hear it as if you are standing in front of it (acoustic instrument that is); this is sound quality. It will not be achieved by inexpensive instruments. Carrying power, clarity of tone and tone quality do make the really good instrument. I have not found a single post anywhere to defy my opinion. I dare you.

My son has played my ´30 ies D-28 recreation and said: "It sounds like cream". This has been the reaction of a couple of people. The instrument is a great piece of workmanship. It was expensive. It would be ridiculous to compare it to my (much loved) Martin D-16M. Despite "Dirty Daisy" being my first good guitar, it can´t hold its own compared to my D-28 recreation or my great Southerner Jumbo. I would hold anybody responsible who claims otherwise. Eat a "real" steak and compare it to a steak from a feedlot.

[jasona]

I'm not sure what you are referring to. The video labeled "The Loar" was the one I preferred, and that was mostly because it lacked the sharp and distracting sound of the plectrum that came through very clearly in the prior video.

When I first visited this thread, the text that read "First listen to the Dudenbostel" went to the video of him playing the Loar, and vice versa. Seems fixed now.

I guess what I'm saying is it's not the cost, but the player, that really matters. The magic is in the fingers.

Yep.

[Erok]

If someone wants a fancy doo-dad mandolin, and they can afford it, more power to them.

Even better if it inspires them to play more, placebo or not.

Just sayin'

[fscotte]

Most folks don't hear differences between one of them real expensive names and their less expensive mando because they don't play above the 12th fret. That's where the little extra time by a well known luthier comes into play. Whether you need that extra tone up there is another thing.

On my trip to Carter's I couldn't believe how consistently good the Nuggets, Gilchrists, Red Diamond sounded up on the higher frets. Attempting to get a good consistent tone from the higher end is something I'm trying to do in my builds, and fact is, it is not easy.

[Jess L.]

Most folks don't hear differences between one of them real expensive names and their less expensive mando because they don't play above the 12th fret. That's where the little extra time by a well known luthier comes into play. ...

Ah. Now that's an excellent point.

12th fret might be generous though... some of the low-end instruments I've owned seem to start fizzling out much lower than that. (Not an action or fret-leveling thing.)

...Whether you need that extra tone up there is another thing. ...

True.

In my case, I don't need that extra tone, I have no desire to play up there anyway, and I buy my instruments accordingly. I get by just fine for basic fiddle-tune melody playing, with only 7 frets.

But I can respect that other people who play genres that do require playing high up on the neck, would benefit from a good-quality instrument designed to handle that.

[Jim Garber]

Most folks don't hear differences between one of them real expensive names and their less expensive mando because they don't play above the 12th fret. That's where the little extra time by a well known luthier comes into play. Whether you need that extra tone up there is another thing.

On my trip to Carter's I couldn't believe how consistently good the Nuggets, Gilchrists, Red Diamond sounded up on the higher frets. Attempting to get a good consistent tone from the higher end is something I'm trying to do in my builds, and fact is, it is not easy.

So very true. Many years ago I was at Mandolin Brothers and I remember playing one of their most expensive vintage Martins and I can still hear the jewel-like tones of those nuts on the upper frets. Years later but back in the 1980s I was playing a lot of classical mandola. I had a nice teens H4 and though the tone was nice it lost volume when playing fortissimo in the upper stretches. There were only a few makers back then who made mandolins let alone mandolas, so I had to bite the bullet and spend top dollar back then for one of John Monteleone's Grand Artist mandolas. Cleaned out a bank account though what I actually paid in those dollars would only buy me a midrange A model these days.

[Br1ck]

Has there ever been a bigger instance of what we are talking about than the Blue Chip pick? Those and their growing breatheren are at the heart of the perceived value issue.

Some will say they aren't worth it without trying them, some have a dozen and believe all others are garbage and most are in between. I'd love to do a pick test with everything being the same color and logo less. Would BC come out on top? Sometimes probably, just like some would like a Gilchrist best but others might like a new builder without the rep. There really is no way to to separate how we think we judge things compared to how we actually do.

How many people who buy a BMW would ever think they were influenced by advertising? No, they all evaluated the car on their own terms.LOL. And really, no one on Earth ever bought a Northridge because of Mike Marshall either.

[SincereCorgi]

Eat a "real" steak and compare it to a steak from a feedlot.

I agree, but I like a lot of music that's closer to chitlins than a high-grade steak. There's something funny about buying a Waterloo to get the fancy version of Sears catalogue Stella tone.

[Jeff Mando]

There's something funny about buying a Waterloo to get the fancy version of Sears catalogue Stella tone.

Reminds me of an old interview from Deborah Harry from the group Blondie who was noteworthy for her eclectic fashion sense. Asked where she got her dresses, she said something to the effect of, "I used to buy them from thrift stores, but now I have people who make me new ones that they copy from the old thrift store dresses....."

[Tom Wright]

Most folks don't hear differences between one of them real expensive names and their less expensive mando because they don't play above the 12th fret. That's where the little extra time by a well known luthier comes into play. Whether you need that extra tone up there is another thing.

On my trip to Carter's I couldn't believe how consistently good the Nuggets, Gilchrists, Red Diamond sounded up on the higher frets. Attempting to get a good consistent tone from the higher end is something I'm trying to do in my builds, and fact is, it is not easy.

It helps to have good fret clearance, and thins the tone to have any neck relief if one wants to work the high range, but the build is crucial. I remember a violin shop that also handled classical guitars,, and had imports from Brazil and Spain. The owner pointed out to me that the low range was easy---it was the high range that separated the good ones from the average or cheap.

On quality in general, the photog that is a working professional better bring his A gear to the gig to reassure the client he is serious, like a salesman that is well-dressed. Who wants to hire a loser?

A better reason, though, is that acquiring the best instrument you can takes away any excuses. This is why a professional violinist is more likely to own a fine violin than a house. (A friend's teacher told him exactly that---he could have a good violin or a house, and needed to choose.)

[Jim Garber]

And really, no one on Earth ever bought a Northridge because of Mike Marshall either.

Actually, you are correct. No one ever bought a Northridge because the mandolin touted by Mike M is a Northfield.

As a wordplayer I do like your coinage of breatheren — those who breath the same air together.

[grassrootphilosopher]

I agree, but I like a lot of music that's closer to chitlins than a high-grade steak. There's something funny about buying a Waterloo to get the fancy version of Sears catalogue Stella tone.

... and if you are a vegetarian it is nonsense to have a steak on your plate.

Like I said:
- Your preference dictates the instrument you like.
- What you like in tone is subjective (oval vs. f-hole; Gibson-style vs. Neapolitan etc.)

But: Quality shows. This is why a Northfield (great mandolins by the way) are not as good as Dudenbostels. Kentucky mandolins do not compete on the same level as a Gibson varnished Fern. A Duff F-5 will blow a Gibson Sam Bush out of the water (been there, done that).

Also there are market segments where there is a competition between new vs. old in virtually the same style of instrument. That´s where it gets really difficult. I think that an old instrument has had time to live. Like a person with experience it has had the sound played into it. That´s why people like Mike Black (Gibson A-style mandolins), Gilchrist (concerning F-4 style mandolins, A-style mandolins) etc. have a hard time competing with the (relatively) large amount of vintage instruments that are available (I fully see your point and I tend to agree).

[Randi Gormley]

So, can you cite placebo effect on those who deliberately buy the cheapest thing they can in defiance of brand name cache? I'm thinking of a description of some genre guitarists who insist on playing beat-to-pieces instruments because they feel it's more authentic to what they play. Just tossing that out there.

[Jim Garber]

If a musician is deliberately doing that regardless of getting a certain tone, I would agree with you, Randi.

As I probably mentioned in this thread already, i love to play the game in music stores these days to find a real bargain instrument for very little money. They do exist but you have to find them in person. A few years ago there was one Epiphone that outshone all the others in a particular store. The others were terrible.

OTOH I think about a few famous musicians, the most prominent is David Lindley, who i have seen in concert mutliple times. He loves to pick up cheapo garage sale and flea market guitars, mostly electrics and plays them on stage, however I do believe that he loves the tones he gets form them, nice and dirty and funky.

The equivalent would be those of us who love Strad-O-Lins or Kays or Harmony mandolins. I have a big old Kay Jumbo flattop that to my ears almost sounds as good as my vintage Gibson flattops. of course, it also has a big Louisville Slugger neck. Anyway, i do enjoy that one almost as much as the higher end ones. But if it sounded like ugh, no way.

[Charlieshafer]

So, can you cite placebo effect on those who deliberately buy the cheapest thing they can in defiance of brand name cache? I'm thinking of a description of some genre guitarists who insist on playing beat-to-pieces instruments because they feel it's more authentic to what they play. Just tossing that out there.

No, I don't think that's placebo effect, I think that's more of a visual vibe they're looking for. Which in turn gives them a hoped-for mojo that makes people think they're cooler than the average guy. The only problem with that is now there are so many trying to look down-scale or vintage (see Ear-Trumpet microphones) that now it's cliche. Vocalists do it too, with a sort of enforced twang or mimicking that '20's urban nasal sound.

Handlebar mustaches, beards, plaid shirts. It's enough to make you miss Elvis' jumpsuits.

[pheffernan]

Also there are market segments where there is a competition between new vs. old in virtually the same style of instrument. That´s where it gets really difficult. I think that an old instrument has had time to live. Like a person with experience it has had the sound played into it. That´s why people like Mike Black (Gibson A-style mandolins), Gilchrist (concerning F-4 style mandolins, A-style mandolins) etc. have a hard time competing with the (relatively) large amount of vintage instruments that are available (I fully see your point and I tend to agree).

I didn't realize that they were having a hard time. Is there anything that I can do to help?

As the owner of both a vintage Gibson snakehead and a modern Black reproduction, I think that there's room in this world for both. I must confess that I don't think of a mandolin as a "person with experience" that "has had time to live" and "has had the sound played into it." Rather, I believe that some people simply prefer antiques just like others favor newer builds. Personally, I place my faith in the modern independent luthier, as my signature attests. Of course, I wouldn't refuse the Griffith Loar if it were made affordably available to me.