Instruments, Cost & the Placebo Effect

[Jess L.]

... (This isn't really a question post so much as just opening a topic for discussion, should anyone be interested.)

That allows us posters a lot more latitude!

... Having been in the musical instrument business at one time, I've often been amazed by how much musicians spend on instruments for what are often fairly questionable reasons. ...

Sometimes it's as simple as plain ol' insecurity and/or the desire to "pull rank" on other people. Same thing (sometimes) for overpriced luxury automobiles, expensive designer clothes, etc. Status symbols.

For some, the needlessly-expensive items make insecure people feel 'special', like they're not part of the everyday rabble. In their mind, that helps them to feel better about themselves. They feel that they have "arrived" and are on some sort of special track.

I guess in a way, that could be a placebo (the old 12-step-program saying, "Fake it until you make it"), except that in the instances I've seen (music & some non-physical psychological issues), it does *not* lead to any actual improvement, and sometimes has the *opposite* effect (they get worse). It's like they're sticking their heads in the sand, proceeding to ignore the actual problems. I'm not referring to physical health issues, I believe placebos can possibly have usefulness there (whatever works, doesn't matter why, as long as it works) ... but in musical issues I'm unconvinced.

More like a blindfold than a placebo.

... In my own work as a mental health professional, I am well familiar the power of the placebo. The belief that something is going to help is so powerful it can make us perceive healing. The placebo effect becomes more powerful as the thing we believe in becomes more complicated, too. This generalizes out to our perception of musical instruments. The more we spend on something, and the more experienced we believe its maker was, and the more complicated was it's making (i.e., hand carved verses cut by power tools), the more likely we are to perceive we hear better tone or that the instrument plays better.

I believe placebo in music can be detrimental, a hindrance to the person's musical progress.

I know a guy who always bought lots of fancy expensive instruments to show off at various jams and sessions and proceeded to wow everyone - NOT - with his air of superiority, his total inability to keep a beat, argumentative personality, playing way too loudly, refusing to recognize the importance of 'listening' to what the other musicians were playing instead of just bulldozing through the tune, etc. He would have been better off to spend that instrument money on, oh I dunno, perhaps a metronome for starters, but he didn't believe he needed that, he actually believed it was the *other* people who were playing wrong. But in his mind, since he had the better instruments, that made him feel empowered and invincible. He continued on that way for several decades, but he never stayed at one jam or session for very long, he always had a rotation going. (He was kicked out of some of them, and a number of others switched from public jam or session to private invitation-only and didn't invite him - amazing, the power of one person to shut down a jam.) But, he didn't care, his instruments were far superior, other people clearly didn't know what they're talking about since they had inferior instruments, and for him that's good enough. It would be funny if it wasn't also a bit tragic.

He probably *could* have improved, musically and personality-wise, but that would have required admitting to himself that there were problems. I could never even get him to record himself playing an instrument and listen to it for use as a learning device, like most other musicians do, to see what's good and what can be improved. I'm not a shrink but I'm guessing that subconsciously he knew that the contrast between what *he* heard, vs what the cruel mic & recorder heard, would probably have shattered his notions of how great he sounded on his wondrous expensive instruments, and he wasn't prepared to deal with that, so he refused to even try it.

I think those expensive instruments held him back. If he'd been playing some cheap piece of junk (properly set up, of course), he might never have developed any fantasy illusions of how great he sounded, so he might have been more willing to recognize bad sounds and take corrective action with his technique, to make good sounds instead.

Being in denial gets a person nowhere. Having too much of an emotional dependence on a particular tool/instrument, can lead to stagnation. "My instrument is awesome, it will make me sound good, so I don't need to work very hard at improving my technique."

I think to advance musically, a person has to be honest with themselves. It can be scary! Find what needs fixed, and fix it.

Maybe some people don't want to advance musically, maybe they just like to collect stuff. That's probably harmless as long as they're honest with themselves and not trying to fool themselves into thinking "this next instrument is the one, it will make me play better". No. Takes hard work to play better. It's not achieved by just repetitively buying one after another of increasingly more-expensive instruments in some sort of frenzied OCD buying spree.

... he said, "How come you just don't get a better instrument."

I told him, "Why should I? I really like how this one sounds, and it plays very well."

He nodded and understood. We've both found gems that didn't cost much.
...

Right on!

[Bertram Henze]

JL, the personality you describe is a disorder known as narcissism. Many of them make it on TV, that's one reason not to watch too often
I suspect a luthier might have mixed feelings with such custom - pays the bills but doesn't exactly save the world.

[Jess L.]

JL, the personality you describe is a disorder known as narcissism. ...

Oh... ok, I just did a couple minutes' quick reading about narcissism, and in light of that, it's possible I might have gotten 'cause' & 'effect' mixed up - it could be that narcissism caused his wild instrument purchases and subsequent arrogant behavior and lack of musical progress, rather than my hypothesis that the fancy instruments somehow warped his judgment.

... I suspect a luthier might have mixed feelings with such custom - pays the bills but doesn't exactly save the world.

Yeah... for anyone selling something, the more buyers, the better... a bunch of cheapskates like me wouldn't provide much income to luthiers... I guess there's lots of different ways to look at things.

[Sterling]

This thread is not limited to mandolincafe. Check out trumpetmaster.com for more craziness. I own about 40 trumpets. I’ve paid anywhere from $9.00 to $4,000.00 for them. They all have their own voice and use.

[LadysSolo]

It is in all areas. I used to show my horses, mid-level quality like my mandolins. There is a point of diminishing returns there too, around the $6000 - $10,000 range where if you spend more it is only a slight increase in quality. But rich people would spend cubic dollars on horses for their children but not make the children take lessons to learn to ride, then it was the poor horse's fault when the child didn't win, because for all that money the horse was supposed to be a mind reader and make the kid look good. REALLY????

[jasona]

Listening to these recordings, I had an immediately preference for the Loar. The tone sounded clearer and sweeter to me, though, of course, that could have been an artifact of the recording, or even of my computer's playback of the recording. There was also the fact that the recording of the Loar had much of the pick noise reduced (or perhaps he was using a less noisy plectrum).

You did note that he mixed the videos and mandolins mentioned right?

[Bertram Henze]

I just did a couple minutes' quick reading about narcissism, and in light of that, it's possible I might have gotten 'cause' & 'effect' mixed up - it could be that narcissism caused his wild instrument purchases and subsequent arrogant behavior and lack of musical progress, rather than my hypothesis that the fancy instruments somehow warped his judgment.

Yes, it's not like the One Ring twisting the bearer's mind.
It's rather like Voldemort's horcruxes. Destroy one, he'll just make new ones.

[Cliff Seruntine]

Yes, it's not like the One Ring twisting the bearer's mind.
It's rather like Voldemort's horcruxes. Destroy one, he'll just make new ones.

Oh, this is awesome! One day, I am going to build a mandolin and call it the Horcrux model.

[Cliff Seruntine]

You did note that he mixed the videos and mandolins mentioned right?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. The video labeled "The Loar" was the one I preferred, and that was mostly because it lacked the sharp and distracting sound of the plectrum that came through very clearly in the prior video.

Yet, tbh, mostly what strikes me when I watch videos like those from Thile, or Lichtenberg, or other talented players, is they can elicit such magic from the tiny instruments called mandolins.

I know my own thought on this instruments and their relative values has been shaped much by an experience I had as a child. I was in band and a parent who had very little money had shown her son's sax to the band teacher. She sounded embarrassed as she told him the battered old thing was a cheap instrument she'd gotten much used from a music store in the small town an hour away from our country village. It had been sold and resold to succeeding students many times over many years til it had come, tarnished and battered, to her son. She didn't think he'd be able to take it far. The band teacher looked it over, set his fingers to the keys and drew a few minutes of stunning jazzy magic out of the old thing. He smiled and handed it back to her and told her it was a fine, old instrument and her son could be proud.

I guess what I'm saying is it's not the cost, but the player, that really matters. The magic is in the fingers.

[Jim Garber]

I guess what I'm saying is it's not the cost, but the player, that really matters. The magic is in the fingers.

Certainly makes a big difference who plays it but given that same person and aside from MacArthur grants there is a reason why these excellent players choose certain instruments.

BTW I love the tone that Tim Connell gets from his Lestock Arrow mandolin here (and elsewhere). He was in New York a few years ago and it was a joy to hear him in person.

[Jess L.]

... An odd artifact of the music world I see here in upper Nova Scotia, where Celtic music rules and the people have been very poor for centuries, is a preference for less expensive instruments has developed. Nova Scotians are wealthier now, but it's become part of the music. When I was selling violins here, I was surprised by how the traditional fiddlers would often prefer the cheaper fiddles that reminded them of one an ancestor had carved. In old Ireland, and probably Scotland, where common folk were extremely poor, there was a tradition of making homemade fiddles and other instruments. That tradition is nearly dead here, but among small sessioners, there is still a liking for instruments others might consider amateurishly made. ...

Excellent points there.

... Yet, CBers are famous for their music and do marvels with those modest instruments. ...

They certainly do! It's some of my favorite music.

... I was in band and a parent who had very little money had shown her son's sax to the band teacher. She sounded embarrassed as she told him the battered old thing was a cheap instrument she'd gotten much used from a music store in the small town an hour away from our country village. It had been sold and resold to succeeding students many times over many years til it had come, tarnished and battered, to her son. She didn't think he'd be able to take it far. The band teacher looked it over, set his fingers to the keys and drew a few minutes of stunning jazzy magic out of the old thing. He smiled and handed it back to her and told her it was a fine, old instrument and her son could be proud. ...

Cool!

... I guess what I'm saying is it's not the cost, but the player, that really matters. The magic is in the fingers.

Yup. Totally. Classic example:


(or direct link)
Yeah I know, it's a 're-run', I already posted that once in 2017 and I think once in 2015 also, but it's still relevant.

Certainly makes a big difference who plays it but given that same person and aside from MacArthur grants there is a reason why these excellent players choose certain instruments. ...

I can think of a couple of reasons:

• Tuning stability. When you're on stage, you want the instrument to stay in tune for more than 30 seconds at a time. A 'properly'-constructed instrument might have an advantage in this area, compared to some wobbly poorly-constructed thing. (Although you can't beat plywood for dimensional stability, as long as there are no structural issues.)
  
  
• How it behaves when amplified for large audiences. Different tone using a mic or pickup playing on a loud stage in front of a large audience, compared to playing unamplified acoustic-only trad Irish sessions or something. Need the right tool for the job.
  

[Bertram Henze]

There might be another mechanism at work as well. The underside of a placebo is a lost excuse - if your playing is bad, you can always blame it on your cheap instrument. But when you get a better instrument, you realize with shock that your excuse is gone now and you stand exposed, which makes your playing even worse...
It's really a matter of who fools who

[stevedenver]

I find something i like in almost every instrument.
Every instrument, like people has a unique voice.

From the time i was a child, i could hear and feel differences in quality instruments.

I used to build lutes and guitars. I appreciate aesthetics, woods, inlay, precision fit and finish. These alone are real factors, to some extent.



I do not confuse making music as being dependent upon having an instrument of any given quality. They interact, but, are also exclusive. A wash tub bass can get the job done instead of an upright, sometimes.


I always hear something. I hear differences. I hear the difference between the dude and loar. I too prefer clarity, as well as mid and bass sustain, and the sweetness which comes, i think, of balance and intonation.

Some folks want bragging rights. Many have the blessing of music in their hearts. And, there is an overlap.

I guess it comes down to one's experience, knowledge, ability, and, open mindedness. Oh, and having fun playing music.


Not to mention how instrument color influences sound.....LOL.

And one only needs to read these forums to know, many have their point of view, and its not going to budge.

otoh, I think we all know the nirvana of strumming a simple open E or G chord on a well tuned, top notch guitar, ie the most basic level of skill, and thinking, "OMG THAT sounds soooo good".

[Benski]

Very well and nicely said, Steve. Cheers.

[LadysSolo]

I need all the help I can get from my instruments, but I know my limitations, and I would never be able to bring out all the possibilities in a $10000 + instrument, but I might be able to from my $2000 - $3000 instruments, just like with my horses. I need over introductory but not cubic dollar - basically "workmanlike, mid-level." But YMMV, and if you want the high-dollar and can appreciate and afford it, good for you! Just like no one REALLY needs to drive a BMW or a Mercedes, a Ford or Chevy will get you around just fine, but some prefer to.

[mandocaster]

At the risk of getting overly nihilistic, there will always be someone whose instrument will be finer than yours and someone else whose instrument is inferior. There will always be some 12 year old who can play you under the table.

Mando shopping, either for the sake of fantasy or because you really want to lay out some cash for an upgrade, is a fun activity on its own account. If you can earn, beg, borrow, or whatever the scratch for a Loar, I say congratulations.

[grassrootphilosopher]

At the risk of getting overly nihilistic, there will always be someone whose instrument will be finer than yours and someone else whose instrument is inferior. There will always be some 12 year old who can play you under the table.

Your post, with all due respect, is besides the point concerning this thread`s question if there is a placebo effect concerning the purchase of a high (er) priced instrument.

Your point, that there is allways someone who can eat you for breakfast, is well taken and true.

The placebo effect though, is something entirely different. Is there a blinding force that will prevent you from seeing the quality that a truely better instrument has? (This though is not the placebo effect) Is there a blinding force that will make you claim that your instrument is just as good as an instrument that is at least ten times more expensive than yours? (This is the placebo effect)

Again, I think that you - given the opportunity, the time and the instrument - will see (and without a heavy heart will certainly accept) that an instrument of a higher price does carry a more refined sound, a better playability, a stronger tone, more carrying power etc.

One of the really inspiring topics on the mandolin cafe is the "mandolins of a thousand bucks or so"! Whenever I read a thread about "what mandolin to buy" I scream inside because the answer is so near, clear, easy and true.

A mandolin of a thousand bucks can do the trick as well as a LLoyd Loar F-5. But does my Strad-O-Lin does sound as good? Heck - no! (But I love it for what it is!)

[Relio]

I've played a lot of mandolins and have never played a Kentucky, The Loar, or other affordable mandolin that I liked better than an Ellis, Duff, Kimble, Gil, etc. I found the tone, volume, and playability all superior on the more expensive instruments. I've found with most things in life, you get what you pay for.

[Charlieshafer]

I've played a lot of mandolins and have never played a Kentucky, The Loar, or other affordable mandolin that I liked better than an Ellis, Duff, Kimble, Gil, etc. I found the tone, volume, and playability all superior on the more expensive instruments. I've found with most things in life, you get what you pay for.

No one ever said there weren't quantitative differences in huge price leaps; this comparison you're making is pointless. It's more a question of keeping things in a relative price range, and many others here have said. You want to play a 10k instrument, that's great, but if you remove the names of the makers, and add some 5k and some 15k, make sure they all look the same in terms of inlays or other aesthetics, what would you pick? Does it really matter? Are you a better sounding player on a 15k instrument as opposed to a 5k? I'm pretty sure you won;t be. Again, as an example, when Mike Marshall was at my venue, and shifted back and forth between his Loar and Northfield, no one heard a difference.

[fatt-dad]

It's never rational to make a life-long decision. Well, maybe at some point in the future it'll all make sense.

I think when somebody, "Knows" they are really drawn to learning the mandolin and playing music with other folks (i.e., after a year or so?), then, "Katy bar the door!" I mean if you can spring a grand there's a life-long instrument for you! If you can spring 10 grand - same's true!

Like buying a car or a pair of jeans it's not always rational; however. . .

I mean I sort of want a Derrington Sam Bush! Just to check it out, enjoy it for a while and such. It'll never happen though, 'cause I know what's going to the grave already!

f-d

[bruce.b]

I recently posted on a different thread, about flattops vs archtops, how much I love the tone Tim Connell gets from his Arrow mandolin. Now that I’m local to him I want to make it to one of his shows.

Certainly makes a big difference who plays it but given that same person and aside from MacArthur grants there is a reason why these excellent players choose certain instruments.

BTW I love the tone that Tim Connell gets from his Lestock Arrow mandolin here (and elsewhere). He was in New York a few years ago and it was a joy to hear him in person.

[stevedenver]

No one ever said there weren't quantitative differences in huge price leaps; this comparison you're making is pointless. It's more a question of keeping things in a relative price range, and many others here have said. You want to play a 10k instrument, that's great, but if you remove the names of the makers, and add some 5k and some 15k, make sure they all look the same in terms of inlays or other aesthetics, what would you pick? Does it really matter? Are you a better sounding player on a 15k instrument as opposed to a 5k? I'm pretty sure you won;t be. Again, as an example, when Mike Marshall was at my venue, and shifted back and forth between his Loar and Northfield, no one heard a difference.

OP:"The difference between junk instruments and well made ones is obvious. But what is the difference between an instrument of modest cost and quality build verses one of extreme cost and quality build? What makes a mandolin worth spending a fortune on? Where do we define the point of diminishing returns, where the gains are worth far less than the price increases? And how do we know if what we believe perceive actually is. Highly subjective questions what are always interesting."

Geez, I thought most of us, from experience, agree there is a diminishing return/ geometric increase in price for incremental increases in quality. As for the subjective "is it worth it?" (not "will it make me sound better") I think that boils down to ones wherewithal, ones personal VALUES, no more no less.

Are you comfortable with 5, 10, 20, 50, 250 dollar bottle of wine for daily consumption? There are many who fit into each bracket, and those at the top think no more of what they spend than those at the bottom. And, I don't think its always smoke and mirrors.



Doesn't really address the "placebo effect".

I think "the herd effect" may be more apropos. I want to own the same mando that so and so plays, 'cos shes my mando hero.



I mean, this really could be more a discussion of marketing psychology, huh?
Why do we want what we want?

Well I for one, think it is in part finding that THING which aligns with or reflects ones values/priorities (what ever those might be and god knows why).

It may be internal and personal, or, strictly for the rest of the world to notice.

5 cents pleez.

[bruce.b]

“Well I for one, think it is in part finding that THING which aligns with or reflects ones values/priorities (what ever those might be and god knows why).”

I believe this is very much what I do with most things I purchase/own.

[JeffD]

This thread is not limited to mandolincafe. Check out trumpetmaster.com for more craziness. I own about 40 trumpets. I’ve paid anywhere from $9.00 to $4,000.00 for them. They all have their own voice and use.

Wow. I love it. Can you provide a picture of your trumpets on display. That would be pretty cool.

[Mark Wilson]

I have nice A5 mandolins from respected builders that far exceed what I can get out of them and I have no "wish they were better" thoughts when I play them. None of them were pricey in comparison to upper tier mandolins especially F5s. To get a mandolin at twice the price I would want to be a better player or it would be a waste of good mandolin.