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Thread: Playing Off Beat?

  1. #26

    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    squeeze-chop.mp3

    I don't have any recording equipment and capturing this one my phone isn't the best quality. Hopefully, you can hear me pressing the strings down between chops.

    Hope it helps.

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  3. #27

    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Sorry but I did not read all of the posts so some may be a duplication. Long story. I had a a very hard time getting the idea of chopping on the off beat, mostly because I had zero musical back ground and di not understand the difference between the beat and off beat. Once I understood that it was fairly easy. If you count in cut time 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and. The 1 and 2 and is a measure and you chop on the and. Then 2 and 4 and is another measure, again chop on the and. When you tap if you tap you foot on the 1 and raise you toe on the and, that way meet your hand going down to chop meets your toe coming up. A training drill someone gave me was to tap my toe or foot on the beat and clap on the off beat. there is still nothing wrong with hitting the G string on the beat and chopping on the off beat, maybe just dampen the G or hit it lightly. I also cheat off the guitar player but your best friend in a band or jam is a good bass player. They thump the beat and you chop in between. If you starting getting lost just find the bass.

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  5. #28

    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    This fellow has an interesting melody in picking, but I don't see where this syncopation is. Guess it would be hard to tell for the untrained eye/ear with a solo player. Still an interesting tune.

    Mandolin Pick Technique- Crosspicking & Syncopation
    Hi James, While I like Banjo Ben and believe he's got a lot to offer, the vid you posted has little to do with your 'off-beat chopping question.
    The Tim O'Brien video Ivan posted addresses your question better. It would have demonstrated it better (IMO) if there had been a bass included in video though.

    This guy might be helpful to you also.?. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZOv1-wc28
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

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  7. #29
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Found a method of playing on the off beat. Normally I would strum on the G string, but the base-playing school music teacher did not like that approach - this it was throwing him off. He said He saw me double-tapping my foot and thought that was throwing me off. Said nah, the other tap was when I should be strumming. Guess this guy has quirks on how other people play am thinking. So he scooted off over to the side and he wasn't playing normal base thumps, he was playing base like a guitar.

    So, I decided to tap on the "Florida" area with my thumb on the beat, then would strum on the off beat. Which seems to work good up until one of the songs was a double beat and I sat it out - fingers were sore anyhow.

    The music instructor fella actually noticed and said I did well there. Haven't perfected off beat play style yet, merely found a method that didn't annoy the base player that allowed me to have a bit of fun finally.

    However the leader of the group suggested that I play normally like the rest of the group does, up until I learn their songs & know what I am doing - since I'm playing mostly by ear. I kept at it though, and it's different hearing your tone in between theirs.
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  8. #30
    Registered User Bunnyf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    James, it's funny, I sometimes take my mandolin to a reg. uke jam and I play on the back beat and it seems to confuse the ukers, especially if I'm leading a tune. They start to try strumming along with me and their playing becomes a big blur.

  9. #31
    Confused... or?
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    Guess this guy has quirks on how other people play am thinking.
    Yeah, some folks are quirky in how they relate to the group, and recognizing that, plus adapting as needed, can be a VERY useful skill for progress of the whole group. Almost a "life lesson", in fact.

    ... decided to tap on the "Florida" area with my thumb on the beat, then would strum on the off beat. Which seems to work ...
    Pretty soon, that "Florida tap" should become fully mental, or internalized, and you'll be moving toward chop-compatible with ANY group! With the ability to recognize quirks, you're gonna get valuable in any group. Not bad progress for just a few days!
    - Ed

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  11. #32
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    All of these " helps " are just a crutch or learning tool. You should get away from them as soon as possible, there will come a time when these helps will get in your way and slow you down or mess you up. A musician should be able to play the off beat as well as the beat just by hearing the tune.

  12. #33
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    All of these " helps " are just a crutch or learning tool. You should get away from them as soon as possible, there will come a time when these helps will get in your way and slow you down or mess you up. A musician should be able to play the off beat as well as the beat just by hearing the tune.
    One has to learn or start somewhere, then adapt. One cannot build a house from the roof down, have to start with a foundation.
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  13. #34
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    One has to learn or start somewhere, then adapt. One cannot build a house from the roof down, have to start with a foundation.
    Exacly that's why I said get away from these helps as soon as possible. Sometimes people depend on this kind of stuff until it becomes a problem. Do what ever it takes untill you get the sound in your head then drop them. These kind of things will come around to bite you in the a## if you rely on them too long.

  14. #35
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    For the record I that discovery only came to me after much frustration, that evening.
    The leader did say to let me play normally until I can hang with the group, understand how they play; cause he made motions that my hands were everywhere but where they were supposed to be. That eased the tension, although I still continued to try and get mind to hand functional on the off beat. Tap, strum, tap, strum. It is (trying to) conditioning the mind away from just 'on the beat.'
    I understand the idea; it's getting the brain to cooperate as it wants me to strum on the beat - and when I started 'getting it' would slip again. Argh! /grin

    We meet on Monday evenings at 6PM. Our church plays on Saturdays, but you never know which time(s) they will play. When we had Chuck Williams in the congregation he would almost ALWAYS play after potluck. Now it is hit or miss. So play time with others is limited.
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  15. #36
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    The one problem I had was when the music sped up, and that tap/strum technique was too much for me. Fingers tips were sore to I sat it out. Probably could of played normally...

    Got the Mandolin Fake Book in today with 300 songs. So now I get to play around with various beats and measures. It is the long, slow, poke-along measures that really make me wonder if we're supposed to play something to fill in the gap, or just wait that long slow gap out. But that's another topic.
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    I think now you’re not getting the opportunity to buddy up with the bass to practice offbeat chops and only are woodshedding those on your own things could go slower for you, so you’ll need a substitute option.

    You could try using the slow-jam tracks from FBBTs through your hifi to create an immersive practice environment for you to use at your own speed. http://www.fbbts.com/slowjam.html It’s really important to be buried in the actual sound to get these off beat responses accurate rather than roughly ok. If you keep at it for a while it will begin to click. You can choose tunes from that fakebook and alternate between bouts of chopping and playing the melody to relieve the boredom.

    Again zone in on the bass notes, wait to hear them play then hit the gap. Just keep trying to hit the gap dead centre. Slow it down enough so you can, then gradually increase each time. Then back it off again to check your accuracy, & ramp it up from there.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

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  18. #38
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Hmm, no way to delete a comment. User error, didn't select a song first. Not heard any of the songs there, so will be something new.
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Just tried here and it did it straight away.
    Here’s a pic of the Old Time page with Devil’s Dream button selected and the player running.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	81FCFAB6-79C1-4DC7-B79D-4AF2202244F5.jpeg 
Views:	110 
Size:	611.2 KB 
ID:	164551

    I have a pop-up blocker running too and it still works. I wonder what’s different?
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  20. #40

    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    The country group decided to move the two mandolin players to the middle of the group, and the music teacher that plays base was helping me with chords. The fellow to my right was playing some 6 string base acoustic and was learning to read his fingering for what chord he was in since the lead guitarist changes chords too rapidly and often cannot see that he's moved his fingers.

    So was getting that down and the music teacher says I think i know what is messing you up, it's tapping the G strings first. Well, that's how the fellow over at MandoLessons was saying to play off beat with country players is to tap the G strings, them strum down across the strings for what chord you're in.

    So how am I supposed to retrain the brain to play off beat when I think anyone that has listened to music taps with the beat?!?

    Was consciously trying to make an effort to heel tap on beat, toe tap on off beat. Did not sound good at first but then I heard a blending of the melody ... then the subconscious sneaks in and I'm strumming on the beat again. Argh!


    Was looking in here searching for "play off beat" but was coming up with everything else but tips for playing off the beat.

    Looked up on Google for the same thing, and all that was coming up was something about the session last too long. Google is stupid at times. And in the books that I have says nothing about learning to play off the beat.


    Music teacher trying to tell me the beat is 1 2 3 4, and to strum 2 and 4. Well, chop, but I told him I'm just trying to get into 3 fingered chords so cannot chop on two fingered very well - especially on D.


    So many things to get to learning and not enough time.
    I had to learn to only chop on the off beats to keep up with fast songs and so my arm doesn't get so tired. It was very awkward at first, still isn't fully natural, but all I did was try it and play along with youtube videos, and make a point to do it at jams. Good luck

  21. #41
    Out of tune HappyPickin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    OK, this advice is worth about what you pay for it but here's what worked for me. I am a guitar player originally then I ended up with an upright bass. Playing the back beat does not come naturally to me. When I started learning to chop I spent hours listening to all kinds of music and focused on picking out the back beat. In Bluegrass it might end up being mandolin, banjo, fiddle chops or dobro but it's gonna be there. In old Country it's the snare drum. At first you tend to hear the bass on 1 & 3 but listen for the 2 & 4. Concentrate on the 2 & 4 until that's what you hear first. Don't try to play it until you hear it. Here's a song where the bass is rock solid on 1 & 3 with no fanciness and the 2 & 4 is mandolin chop. (Oh, and it helps if you're listening to stuff you like)

    https://youtu.be/7lsIpL6yyVQ
    Out of tune and out of time.

  22. #42
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Did the phantom pick last Monday and when I was in tune with the group, as am having to play by ear, it sounded good playing off the beat. Then too the music teacher wasn't there so I was having a bit more fun.
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  24. #43
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    Did the phantom pick last Monday and when I was in tune with the group, as am having to play by ear, it sounded good playing off the beat. Then too the music teacher wasn't there so I was having a bit more fun.

    Love it, James! Don't let the teacher get under your skin, man. Piddling around with a mandolin is the most fun I have most days!
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