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Thread: Playing Off Beat?

  1. #1
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Playing Off Beat?

    The country group decided to move the two mandolin players to the middle of the group, and the music teacher that plays base was helping me with chords. The fellow to my right was playing some 6 string base acoustic and was learning to read his fingering for what chord he was in since the lead guitarist changes chords too rapidly and often cannot see that he's moved his fingers.

    So was getting that down and the music teacher says I think i know what is messing you up, it's tapping the G strings first. Well, that's how the fellow over at MandoLessons was saying to play off beat with country players is to tap the G strings, them strum down across the strings for what chord you're in.

    So how am I supposed to retrain the brain to play off beat when I think anyone that has listened to music taps with the beat?!?

    Was consciously trying to make an effort to heel tap on beat, toe tap on off beat. Did not sound good at first but then I heard a blending of the melody ... then the subconscious sneaks in and I'm strumming on the beat again. Argh!


    Was looking in here searching for "play off beat" but was coming up with everything else but tips for playing off the beat.

    Looked up on Google for the same thing, and all that was coming up was something about the session last too long. Google is stupid at times. And in the books that I have says nothing about learning to play off the beat.


    Music teacher trying to tell me the beat is 1 2 3 4, and to strum 2 and 4. Well, chop, but I told him I'm just trying to get into 3 fingered chords so cannot chop on two fingered very well - especially on D.


    So many things to get to learning and not enough time.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    So many things to get to learning and not enough time.
    I hear your woes, James, and feel your pain. I do look at it a bit differently, though. The way I see it I've got all the time in the world. Or better put, I have the rest of my life to learn and enjoy playing music.

    If you're in a time crunch, well, that can be a double-edged sword. Let's say you've joined an ensemble, and you're under pressure to learn your part and get it right. That can be a good motivator to learn quickly and grow quickly. On the other hand, it could just be too much, and could lead to some frustration and crushing of the old spirit. Double-edged sword. So if you're feeling a time crunch, you can sink or swim. Make it happen, or walk away. Music should be fun even when there's work involved.

    I really do have and keep the attitude that I have the rest of my life to keep learning, however long that may be. I've got all the time in the world.
    ----------------
    Playing the offbeat: First off, there's nothing wrong with "tapping the G string" on the 1 and 3 and strumming the 2 & 4 as long as you can learn to pull it off and it goes with the tune. Secondly, if your teacher frowns on you playing that way and you feel the teacher is right and want to keep the teacher, you can "pretend" in your mind to tap the G string - what we call a ghost stroke - to help you keep the beat straight.

    You have to practice and be able to hear in your head what you want to sound like before you can make it second nature.

    There is a lot to be said about how to go about playing rhythm. Instead of searching for playing off the beat, trying searching for how to play rhythm. And you can be more specific, like how to play rhythm in bluegrass, or how to play rhythm in country music, etc. That should help you to find information. Another search tip would be to search for backbeat or back beat instead of off beat.

    Best of luck with your endeavors.
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  3. #3
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Zone in on the bass, forget the rest.
    Even turn towards them if possible so you can interact with them.
    You’re a team, like the drummers snare hand & the bass is the foot, between you you have to become the brain controlling both.

    Take some practice time aside with the bassist and just run that beat over the chord progressions in isolation.
    Get used to where & when their fingers move on the chord changes, you’ll be less likely to get thrown by a change.
    Once you are bonding as a team then you’ll cope with the rest more easily and be able to look away and pay attention elsewhere, because the bond will be there without having to focus so much, it’ll be part of you.

    Things to try while practicing with just the bassist, would include placing your chop beat within that 2 and 4 gap, moving it ahead or lagging within that slot to see the effect it has on the feel. Some tunes need to be urgent so you’d chop closer to the 1 and 3, others will need to feel easy and unhurried or off-kilter so you might try coming in later than the exact 2 or 4.

    Really it’s a question of getting that bond with the bass so it’s second nature and can’t be thrown by the other details & that takes focus until it builds to be second nature between you. You’ll find that the next bond will be the guitarist and you’ll need to work to the same ideas to make sure you both are aiming to place your off-beats so they’re tight together, giving each tune the right feel. If your not tight then it will feel staggered.
    Eoin



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  4. #4
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Wow, thanks. The teacher, Mark, is the (5 string) bass player. We have a lead guitar, 2 support guitars, a youngster with an almost ukulele sided guitar that gets moved all over the place, a fellow playing a rather LARGE 6 string bass guitar. A teenager plays both guitar and mandolin, he's more centered, and we're all playing in a facing circle. Mark is a mid/high school music teacher who is the electric bass player. Everyone save maybe one support guitarist is acoustic - think he's got a small amp at times.


    I work two part-time jobs so have little time, most the time, to practice or relax. The group that plays on Mondays is mostly country, but not true country. They are there to make noise and have fun. Some songs we're not all together on. (VBG) And then there's the noob and his mandolin, me. (Snicker)
    The Saturday group is mostly acoustic church folk, one ukulele who picks more, a box drummer, and then there's me. /wink


    I tried the one strum at MandoLessons: tap G, strum, tap E ... but that did not fare well as the Monday group have hearing aids. So tried the Tap G, strum down from G, Tap D, strum down on G. Think that is when Mark, the bass player, though my taps were getting me off on the wrong off beat. So he would knock on his base as we have no drummer.


    It's that I am wanting to play "on the beat" and trying to rethink this. Was doing good - like when I was learning to circular breath on the didgeridoo - the subconscious mind kicks in & messes me up.
    Circular Breathing was a pain for a year+, then bought a didge that has/had excellent back-pressure. Had CB down in less than an hour! Is why I bought a better Mandolin, figured I'd get a leg up over what I had.

    I won't give up or give in. Sore muscles slow me down, but I still end up playing. This mandolin sounds great, even if I am not quite on par with the group. In the church group I think I made that noticeable difference in the melody.
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Tapping the G string on beat then striking chord on off beat is really boom chuck, that's guitar playing not mandolin. If a ghost stroke on the beat helps use it or tap foot on beat (the boom) strike mandolin on off beat ( the chuck) whatever helps you get the sound in you head. The tapping the G string on the beat continues to reinforce that boom chuck sound that you want to get away from, you teacher is right DON'T tap the G. Once you get the sound in your head the off beat is as easy as the beat. If I'm in a situation where the audience is clapping time to some music, sometimes just for meanest I'll start clapping loudly on the off beat, that will make the ones around me lose it which spreads thru the building until the clapping sounds like applause. You are right most people tap their foot on the beat, as a mandolin player you need to be able to use the off beat as well.

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    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    I'm far from a pro just don't play all the time, been playing long enough and it will come, I enjoy playing different rhythm's and beats when playing with others, The standard off beat gets boring sometimes so I like to mess with time but all in a tasteful context.

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    Registered User Mando Mort's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    I have been a guitar player most of my life and am fairly new to the mandolin, so I had some difficulty at first with what you are talking about. I listened closely to the mandolin parts in my favorite bluegrass recordings to get a feel for it and tried to play along. Give it some time and it will come...

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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrasser78 View Post
    I'm far from a pro just don't play all the time, been playing long enough and it will come, I enjoy playing different rhythm's and beats when playing with others, The standard off beat gets boring sometimes so I like to mess with time but all in a tasteful context.
    I totally agree, constant popping chords on off beat can bore me to tears, but especially in BG it is fundamental. So while I also do what you describe, I think one must be well versed in the fundamental before experimenting with embelishments.

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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Agree with Beanzy, focus on getting in a groove with the bass, who should be playing on the 1 and 3 in most classic country and bluegrass songs. It’ll come, just takes time...
    Chuck

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    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    At least ya know your doing something rite when bandmates all grin and shake their heads or they may think I'm nuts and that is a distinct possibility! No the GREAT Clarence White said it years ago, "I like to play with time, straight time is boring" Something like that was said by him.

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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Well .... most of what you play will be in 4/4 time soooo the on beats are one and three and the off beats are two and four named down and up often......... if you divide / count in 2/2 time like a German polka band Om-Pa ... one two ... it simplifies things the off beats are pa ..... play the pa .... when you want to play a "traditional" mandolin backup .... keep it simple ... your brain can extrapolate from there. R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    I found it helpful, when going from the boom-chuck (tap-strum) pattern to just a chuck, that I squeeze the chord on the 1 and 3 and then chuck on the 2 and 4. Instead of the boom, I just squeeze the chord. It's pretty much silent in a group and allows you to keep time. Instead of a boom-chuck use a squeeze-chuck.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    Music teacher trying to tell me the beat is 1 2 3 4, and to strum 2 and 4. Well, chop, but I told him I'm just trying to get into 3 fingered chords so cannot chop on two fingered very well ...
    So many things to get to learning and not enough time.
    And with every new thing I try to learn, something falls off the back porch. Whatever I am not paying attention to seems to start failing!

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    I work two part-time jobs so have little time, most the time, to practice or relax....
    My experience has been that over time my addiction to mandolin justified itself, and more time happened. The specific time savings I adopted are for another thread, but it seems that now I have a mandolin shaped hole in my life, and so many things work there way around it.

    I won't give up or give in...
    That attitude, by itself, will take you a very long way down the road. Keep it up.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by dadsaster View Post
    I found it helpful, when going from the boom-chuck (tap-strum) pattern to just a chuck, that I squeeze the chord on the 1 and 3 and then chuck on the 2 and 4. Instead of the boom, I just squeeze the chord. It's pretty much silent in a group and allows you to keep time. Instead of a boom-chuck use a squeeze-chuck.
    Never heard of this squeezing. Think you could record a brief video of this technique, perty please with a Snark on top?
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    Dave Sheets
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Lots of good advice here, hang in there and you'll get it.

    Once you get it down, there is nothing more fun than playing off the beat, honest!
    -Dave
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    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    just curious can you listen to a song and clap on the off beats at will?

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    Wow, thanks. The teacher, Mark, is the (5 string) bass player. We have a lead guitar, 2 support guitars, a youngster with an almost ukulele sided guitar that gets moved all over the place, a fellow playing a rather LARGE 6 string bass guitar. A teenager plays both guitar and mandolin, he's more centered, and we're all playing in a facing circle. Mark is a mid/high school music teacher who is the electric bass player. Everyone save maybe one support guitarist is acoustic - think he's got a small amp at times.
    I am a bit confused why you are teling us what instruments are, where they are positioned and whether they are acoustic or not. Unless I am missing something, what does that have to do with rhythm?

    It sounds to me that the leader/music teacher is not quite explaining to you what you need to do. Maybe take him aside sometime and ask him to explain a bit more clearly. If he is a decent teacher, he should be able to to help you.
    Jim

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  22. #18
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I am a bit confused why you are teling us what instruments are, where they are positioned and whether they are acoustic or not. Unless I am missing something, what does that have to do with rhythm?

    It sounds to me that the leader/music teacher is not quite explaining to you what you need to do. Maybe take him aside sometime and ask him to explain a bit more clearly. If he is a decent teacher, he should be able to to help you.
    Guess it's something I picked up in another forum.
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    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Listen to the snare drum on your favourite rock records. And yes. Play the mando. Not a little guitar.

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Another little search tip: This may seem like splitting hairs, and maybe I am splitting hairs, but I would never say "Playing off the beat" unless I meant someone was not able to keep a beat. I'd say, "Playing on the off beat" or "Playing the back beat."

    A search for "playing on the off beat" yields all kinds of rhythm information: https://www.google.com/search?q=playing+on+the+off+beat
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  26. #21
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    This fellow has an interesting melody in picking, but I don't see where this syncopation is. Guess it would be hard to tell for the untrained eye/ear with a solo player. Still an interesting tune.

    Mandolin Pick Technique- Crosspicking & Syncopation
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  27. #22

    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Miller View Post
    Never heard of this squeezing. Think you could record a brief video of this technique, perty please with a Snark on top?
    I'll try recording it when I'm home in the evening. It's just a trick to staying locked into the groove. You depress the strings on the 1 and 3 and chuck on the 2 and 4.

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  29. #23
    en kunnskapssøker James Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by dadsaster View Post
    I'll try recording it when I'm home in the evening. It's just a trick to staying locked into the groove. You depress the strings on the 1 and 3 and chuck on the 2 and 4.
    The group Laliya, well husband and wife; he plays didgeridoo & dulcimer, and she plays djembe. Anyhow James Maguire plays in a weird way, I forget the term he use. but think is like pressing & releasing the strings instead of strumming them. Wonder if this is a similar technique that you are using?

    https://www.facebook.com/laliyamusic...7111729634526/
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Personally i view ''playing off the beat'' as ''playing at an incorrect tempo'' - playing the 'off beat' is a totally different thing altogether,but maybe saying 'playing the back beat' does clarify it a bit more.
    I have to admit that i never had any problems at all in playing on the off beat. When i got my band together & we began to have weekly practice sessions,playing on the off beat just fell into place.

    If you have a listen to some Reggae music,you'll hear 'off beat'' all over the place,
    Ivan

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  32. #25
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing Off Beat?

    Then there’s the bit I referenced in one bit of my reply; which is when you get good enough to ‘play ahead’ or ‘play behind’ the beat, which you can do on the beat or on the off-beat. Is it any wonder things can get confusing?

    Red Rockin’ Chair works great as a Reggae tune.
    Eoin



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