When to switch Positions

[JerseyPicker]

Hi All,

I am working my way through "Mandolin for Dummies" to expand my knowledge, and am now at the section where they introduce minor keys and the "Ukranian Waltz". The author makes a note in the paragraph before the sheet music, saying that in a certain bar, we are to switch to 2nd position with the 1st finger anchored to the "C" on the 3rd fret.

I can play the tune, and understand how to switch positions, however, without the author telling me that those specific bars are to be played in 2nd position, how would I have known to switch out of 1st?

Is there a standard notation for what position one should be playing in, or is it more up to the discretion of the player to sort out which position to play in? Is it my job to think "Oh, this would be easier or sound better to play if I switched up a position for these bars", or does the author of a tune/composer of the sheet music give any indication?

[Tom Wright]

Position is mainly the choice of the player. Some passages would be unplayable in first position, and the choice would be obvious. Some are just more comfortable because one prefers the different string crossings. Sometimes one prefers the different tone of playing a given note on different string.

Rarely, one will find fingering suggestions or requirements in a particular classical piece. For folk or any popular genre it is your choice, and comfort or reliability is the deciding factor. You may prefer second position to play 3th and 7th fret using 1st and 3rd fingers, instead of 2 and 4. But you may prefer the familiarity of first position. You may like using open strings in a tune, or avoiding them for a different sound.

Experience will teach you, as you learn various tunes and songs.

[CES]

What Tom said. Also, in a lot of tab (and some notation) the authors will indicate position with a Roman numeral just above the score at the beginning of the measure in which you’re to shift. There’s typically not an indicator for first position, just if you need to move up the neck.

[Ky Slim]

Tom and CES are right. It's the choice of the player and should be done to make the music better.

I think Don chose to shift positions in that spot of "Ukranian Waltz" because the rhythmic phrasing of measures 25-26 is exactly the same as the rhythmic phrasing of measures 27-28.

So he plays measures 25-26 in 3rd position with fingers 1,2 and 3 all on the A string (notes D,E,F)

Then plays measures 27-28 in 2nd position with fingers 1, 2 and 3 all on the A string (notes C,D,E)


To play those 4 measures all in first position would make the fingering more challenging than necessary.

[EdHanrahan]

Some great info above!

... does the author of a tune/composer of the sheet music give any indication?

Much of what we play was originally written for, or developed on, instruments other than mandolin (excluding, obviously, mandolin instruction material). So the author often won't know or care what position you're in, or even what instrument you're on.

Keep in mind that we all have different hands, different reaches, different strengths, and different prior experiences, so just go with it and you'll eventually get the feel & flow of what works for you.

[sblock]

Just one thing to add to this discussion: a lot of folk and bluegrass players will try to shift positions whenever there's an D, A, or E note in the musical sequence that can be played as an OPEN STRING. Playing the open string note gives extra time to move the left hand and makes shifting pretty easy. Of course, not all musical note sequences have an open string that can be played, so this does not generalize! But a lot of fairly common, up-the-neck licks in the keys of A, C, and D in bluegrass rely on this approach.

[Mandoplumb]

I don't think of first or second position, I just do whatever it takes to play the tune. Maybe this helps a newbi but I think one should ween himself from thinking position as sone as possible. The fretboard is the position, move over it as needed. YMMV

[JerseyPicker]

I don't think of first or second position, I just do whatever it takes to play the tune. Maybe this helps a newbi but I think one should ween himself from thinking position as sone as possible. The fretboard is the position, move over it as needed. YMMV

I'm not sure I understand your advice. I have been trying to commit the muscle-memory of notes in the different positions into my mind, so that they will be just as fluid as the 1st position "open" notes that I'm already familiar with. Is this not the goal?

[Mandoplumb]

I may be confusing you, if so I'm sorry. I never learned first or second position and I think one can put too much emphasis on the mechanics. A banjo player learns forward roll, backward roll, in and out roll, etc but it doesn't sound like music until he quits thinking of rolls and plays the banjo. The position I play is mandolin fretboard. If you need to break it up to learn it, go for it but try to get away from having to think positions.

[EdHanrahan]

... The position I play is mandolin fretboard. If you need to break it up to learn it, ...

Very interesting thought! After learning mandolin, I found my guitar playing to be surprisingly more flexible, sometimes stretching over frets as needed, as opposed to guitar's usual "one fret per finger" rule (being the complement of mandolin's "two frets per finger" rule).

But such flexibility is a relatively advanced concept, so I'd encourage the OP to just:
1) accept a bit of current confusion,
2) keep plugging at it, and,
3) expect that all will become clear over the next several months, years, and/or decades.

[Beanzy]

A couple of rules of thumb I use for shifting decisions;
Move earlier than you have to & don’t be in a rush to come back down.
Give yourself time & space.

The best way up is not always the best way back.

[JerseyPicker]

Thank you all for the great suggestions. Mandoplumb, I get what you mean now, and hope that someday I'll have that kind of intuitive understanding and feel for it.

One things for sure, I have a long way to go with regards to practice and study.

[Mandoplumb]

Jerseypicker hang in there use whatever helps you on your journey. It's been a long time since I started and some of the modern helps I never heard of, maybe my journey would have been easier. The main thing I was trying to say is use what you need to learn but don't let these "helps" become so much a part of your music that you can't get along without them. Use them for what they are but always keep in mind that they are aids, not the music itself, and the sooner you can get along with out them the better.

[KGreene]

This can certainly be confusing for someone new to the mandolin .... I wonder if one (or more) of the more seasoned here in the Café would be willing to provide a short video and narrative, maybe using a common tune for those of us who are more visual learners?

Just curious.

[belbein]

I'll just tell you what I do. Don't know if it's right or wrong. Let's say I'm in first position playing in A. Whether I'm using the A with the root on the G string, second fret ... or the A with the root on the E string, root on the 5th fret ... either way, it's easier for me to go to that E that has the root on the G string, 8th (? I'm doing this by memory!). So sometimes it's just for comfort or quick chord changes.

The other time I now almost always change position is for the chorus ... if the chords are the same in the chorus, I will try to change up the position, must as a way of getting a different sound.

The icing on the cake: as you learn to play a chord in a different position, you're also learning a new chord form that you can use anywhere on the fretboard. Can't beat that. (The only thing I'd suggest is that you learn, for every chord, which finger is playing the root, so when you change that chord form to another position, you know what chord you're playing.)

[pops1]

The more notes you know up the neck, and the more you know your scales, the less you think about when to move or where to go. Go to where the scale is up the neck to do what you have been doing in the open position. I play quite a lot up the neck, I really don't know where 1st position ends and 2ond position starts. If I am playing Hangman's Reel in A for instance I will do one time starting on the open A, next time on the 7th fret of the D string (A), next time on the 12th fret of the A string (A). I can do the whole tune from either of these positions, it makes if fun for me and sounds good with everyone else staying on the open strings by giving some diversity.

[Skip Kelley]

Jerseypicker, Tom is spot on. It's your choice when to change positions. I enjoy playing up the neck instead of playing in the first position. Playing up the neck requires a lot of fourth finger work. My limitations also allow for variations of the tune, which can be fun.

[JeffD]

My teacher has me doing exercises from Wholfahrt. Especially No. 30 for third postion, and No. 34 for switching back and forth from first to third. And...playing exercises from Marilynn Mair, page 76 for second position, and page 79 for going between first, second and third positions.

When I am working on a piece for performing have have my teacher mark it up for positions.

The idea is that once I can read in third and second position with confidence and can switch back and forth and back easily, I will have developed more of an ability to notice when a section will be easier in third position.

When I am not reading music I seem to fall back on FFcP type thinking, where I play from the closed form scale I am comfortable with that makes the riff or line easier, unconcerned as to what position I may or may not be in.

It is kind of compartmentalized at this point, but I am in no hurry to sort it all out. As long as I have stuff in front of me to work on and to master, I am not worried about mastering it all.

[JonZ]

I switch positions when I want everyone to see that I can switch positions.

[Phil Goodson]

I switch positions when I want everyone to see that I can switch positions.

Hey! Now you're being way more honest than most of us, Jon!!

[farmerjones]

As a fiddler, I shift up for the keys of low reg.A, E, Bb, B, etc. I employ what is essentially an index finger capo, and play beneath it. Mandolin with it's double courses, make this nearly impossible. But the principle is the same, as the tuning is the same. FFcF (see jazzmano.com) is close to explaining this much better than I can.

[jshane]

If you watch several accomplished mandolinists play a piece that contains notes above those that can be reached from a hand position near the nut (note that I avoided use of the term "1st position ) you will notice that they tend NOT to play the piece in the same way. That is, each will show preferences for left-hand movement, and specific fingerings before, during, and after this movement.

Because of this, I share Mandoplumb's opinion that focusing on "position" is limiting on mandolin. I assume that it's importance in violin is related to the increased need pay attention to achieving proper intonation when fingering.

edit-- my observations may not apply to written pieces of classical music, that may specify particular fingerings

[farmerjones]

I assume that it's importance in violin is related to the increased need pay attention to achieving proper intonation when fingering.

Indeed, violin-wise, an open string is in tune but for the grace of . . . well. . . the last time you tuned. But a stopped/fingered string is in tune because you physically made it so. (to the best of your ability)

BTW hope nobody clicks on "jazzmano"! ! ! ! ! Of course I meant jazzmando.com. The other great site brought to you buy the wonderful folks that brought you this fine Mandolin Caf'e! !

[JeffD]

Because of this, I share Mandoplumb's opinion that focusing on "position" is limiting on mandolin. I assume that it's importance in violin is related to the increased need pay attention to achieving proper intonation when fingering.

edit-- my observations may not apply to written pieces of classical music, that may specify particular fingerings

I have naturally fallen into that separation.

In most of my reading I am looking at what positions are best. I might go into third position for example: to keep the phrase all on the same string so the timbre is consistent, or because the notes are easier to reach and the rhythm is not threatened, etc. I might go into second position, and then third, if it is a closed phrase that benefits from parallel phrasing with the same fingers, etc. etc.

In jamming I am more FFcP centric, moving closed forms around without regard to position or (to my shame) what key I am in.

Both ways of thinking are gigantic helps and have a positive influence on everything I play. For example when doing scales in third position I know it is this FFcP pattern and then that FFcP pattern. And when jumping somewhere with FFcP I might notice I can play the whole rest of the tune up here, because it is nothing more than third position.

[farmerjones]

If you played me a note (to match/find) above a fourth finger B on the E string, instinct would be to find it on up the E string.
If you were to say "this next tune is in E" I would immediately start in 2nd position. If I were playing a mandolin, rather than a fiddle, I'd capo 2. Another possible reason for shifting would be for playing a harmony line. This gets fun when there's already somebody playing 1st harmony. With the tuning in 5ths, I don't need to know the name of the note/notes.