Old Tuners with a problem

[Brian560]

Does anybody have experience with this type of tuners, and know what type of maintenance they need, what typically goes wrong with them, and what they can be replaced with when something does go wrong? One of the posts seems to be bent down a bit, and recall reading somewhere this was common. I suspect I will have to bring the instrument to a luthier to have it looked at.

[Jim Garber]

You don't really tell us what the problem you are having is. Is it difficult to turn some of the tuners? re the strings not staying in tune? Anything else?

I had a Washburn bowlback that would not tune. It turned out that the gears were attached by rivets and not screws and one of them was broken altogether.

If you take off the tuner covers (be careful where you put those tiny screws) you may see what the problem is. The tuners under those covers are really no different that the ones where you can see the gears. The tuners may just need a little oil or there may be some dirt gumming up the gears.

[Brian560]

Jim, one of the tuners does not hold tune well. It is the top post in the photograph. I was not sure if those covers only covered the gears or if they held part of the mechanism. I have looked for a photograph with that cover removed. I read somewhere that the post bending down was a common problem with some tuners because of the direction they were installed. Unfortunately I couldn’t find that reference.

[fifths]

Except for the engraving pattern, those look identical to the tuners on my 1929 Martin B. When I first got it, there were a couple of very stiff ones. I disassembled (removing all the hardware) and cleaned out gunk on the gears with goo gone and a toothbrush then reassembled and lightly lubricated with teflon bike lube. Re-assembly was fussy but not overly complicated. Maybe take photos when you have the covers off to aid in putting it all back.
If you're not at all mechanically inclined, it might not be the job for you, but if you have any mechanical competence, it's not hard.
If yours is truly bent/broken, I don't know about replacements beyond hoping to find some in a luthier's dusty old tuner bucket..
good luck!

[EdHanrahan]

... One of the posts seems to be bent down a bit ...

If you mean a post that the strings wrap around, that would be a problem requiring major maintenance, probably replacement. But such damage is rare because posts are inherently strong, and a blow that would bend one is more likely to shatter the headstock.

FAR more common is that a tuning key (the part that you twist with your fingers) gets bent, usually from a drop onto a hard surface. Yes it looks ugly but, if the bend is not too severe and it still turns freely, it often doesn't affect functionality. If it's not turning smoothly, it might be straightened a bit, or might not.

In any case, this tutorial from Café member Paul Hostetter is well worth reading:
http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html

[Brian560]

Fifths, it is from a Martin BK. Ed, I am talking about the post the string wraps around. It is more pulled out of alignment than bent. An article I read said it had something to do about the worm gear being either above or below the round gear. One configuration tends to pull the posts down over time. I will bring it to someone competent to have it looked at, and have a setup done while it’s there. Thanks for your help

[MikeEdgerton]

It may be as easy as adjusting a screw under that plate. You want to have them serviced if possible as there really isn't an aftermarket replacement for those tuners. This probably isn't a warm over vs worm under tuner issue. I suspect that once the cover comes off the issue will present itself.

If you'd like to learn a bit more about servicing old tuners take a look at Paul Hostetter's tuner page here.

[EdHanrahan]

Yes, I see the leaning post at the left of your 2nd photo. As Mike implied, a worm-under gear (part of the inherent design and not easily modified) will not cause a post to lean, although a worm-over gear should help prevent a post from leaning.

Assuming that the posts have no metal bushings on the face of the headstock, the post has probably worn its way into the wood, possibly abetted by the loose screw that Mike hinted at. A solution that I have used is adding the super-cheap Stew-Mac vintage grommets to the post hole, acting as bearings (which was their original intent). No, it is not the original design, but I take the view that it's what the original design should have been! And I'm assuming this is a player instrument more than a collector/museum piece.
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...r_Bushing.html

Disclaimer: A proper professional would plug the hole, re-drill it, and re-finish the surface to look like original, without adding the bushings. A hobbyist like me plans that if the hole is SO worn that the grommet needs shimming, that should still be hidden under the bushing's rim. YMMV!

[Wiggans]

I recently removed a bowlback mandolin's tuners (See below) that are similar to, but not exactly the same, as those you show. A couple of the tuners were difficult to turn.

I would expect that if you remove the three small screws on your tuners, then the entire tuner assembly can be removed for inspection.
I found that the tuner mechanism was pretty crudely made. On thing I noticed was that the metal plates were rather soft and prone to bending when under strain. This can cause misalignment of the gears driving the tuners. By carefully straightening out the plates I was able to properly align the gears and after lubricating with a little grease, the tuners now work pretty well.
I found the slots on the screws very narrow. I eventually ended up grinding the blade on an old screwdriver to make it thinner. As suggested previously take care when removing the screws as they are tiny and very easy to lose!!!
You may find that the screw holes get stripped but its easy enough to fill and redrill the holes if necessary.
Regards

[Brian560]

Thanks for your suggestion, and all of the advice. When I bring it into the shop, I will inquire about having those garments installed. I still suspect those covers are not simply covers, so I probably can't take them off with the strings installed.

[MikeEdgerton]

The tuners are attached to them. You would have to take the strings off no matter what.