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Thread: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

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    Default Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    I came to the mandolin from the fiddle. It is no secret in the violin world that old instruments are much prized; like a fine wine, their tone opens up and improves over time. But violins have much lower tension than mandolins and aren't subject to the stresses that work against mandolins.

    Recently, a friend offered me my choice of several vintage cylinder back Vega mandolins in fine condition between 100 and 120 years old. We've known each other a long time and I trust him, I just do not really understand how mandolins age. How long are mandolins good for? Does an instrument that is nearly a century old have a lot of life in it? I know mandolins open up in time, though when mandolinists speak of that I find they tend to speak in terms of time that is much shorter than what fiddlers think. How long is it from the time a well cared for mandolin peaks til its voice begins to degrade.

    I know this is a complicated set of questions and there is no simple answer, but your input would be much appreciated.

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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    General answer from an admitted non-expert, but I don't know that your question is easily answered with a simple number. It depends on each individual instrument's structural integrity, the woods used, and how they're stored and cared for. The Holy Grail of mandolins for many people are 1923-1924 Lloyd Loar signed Gibson F5s, several of which are still being used by top pros as their main instruments today. There are also plenty of mandolins from the early 1900s-1910s still in use, and I played an Italian bowl back a few years ago that was built in 1890 or so that sounded great...should have bought that one...

    I've never owned a cylinder back, but think they're very cool. If structurally sound, there's no reason to think you won't have as long as you care for it well to play it, and maintain its tone. I'm always open to education if those more qualified offer better info.
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    And I went from mandolin to the fiddle .... Well ... yes and no .. Instrument purchases always come down to the same few questions to me. Does it play well , does it sound good, is it in good repair, do I like it, can I afford it. The oldest instruments I own are at the one century mark or will be in a few years. I am fairly sure I won't live long enough to wear any of them out. Wear the frets out yes . I have yet to wear the mechanical tuners out on one. Fiddle pegs are of course quite different. Insofar as opening up a heavier top takes longer but certainly less than a decade ... much less in my experience. I have not read an article or taken part in a discussion on how long a mandolin will last. As long as it is cared for and maintained would be the only answer my experience yields. Lastly I have no experience with cylinder back instruments. Let us see what other answers surface. Interesting question ... thanks. ... R/
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    Registered User bruce.b's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    As with fiddles, they can be taken apart and repaired. I don’t think there is a lot of difference there. It’s wood, you can repair or even replace any part of the instrument, like they do with fiddles. An interesting question for both is at what point is it still an original instrument? Old fiddles have often been extensively repaired and altered from the original.

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    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    I've played my 1920 Gibson A3 since 1985. It's great. It's also had a few repairs/tweeks during these last 3 decades. They all do!

    f-d
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    There is no definitive answer because the modern mandolin was developed essentially between 1890 and 1925; there were millions made in that era and probably hundreds of thousands from that era are still being played. The archtop in particular is a sturdy, stable little package. Generally the ones still being played are from the teens or later; it is widely agreed that at that point the makers had gotten beyond the approach of “here’s a pretty shape, let’s try it!” (The Orville Gibson artistic design approach; I’m not demeaning his contribution here) and were focusing more on refining the sound. So the functional modern mandolin (not including the community of bowlbackplayers) is about 100 years old and though the sound is fully mature in one that old, I have yet to hear of one “losing it” in that regard.

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    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Yes mandolins age well if taken care of like anything! I play and love my Gibson's from the early to late 30's, nothing wrong with them sure you have to humidify in winter and general care, set-ups such as new frets, every now and then bend the bridge back to straight instead of leaning forward etc.. Mandolins will age just fine the great ones already have over 100 years some less-that's Gibson's I'm talking.

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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    I’ve seen Vega cylinder backs in good condition... I wouldn’t worry about that!

    More importantly:
    1. What kind of music do you want to play?
    2. What price did your friend put on the mandolin?

    If you answer those questions, you’ll probably get some solid advice on whether a Vega is a good choice for you + if the price is fair...
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    I have a couple bowlbacks from the late 19th century. They're fine. They're also fortunate that their previous owners took care of them.

    My Gibsons are from 1921 and 1924, and I expect them to be going strong long after I've departed this vale of tears.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Seruntine View Post
    I came to the mandolin from the fiddle. It is no secret in the violin world that old instruments are much prized; like a fine wine, their tone opens up and improves over time. But violins have much lower tension than mandolins and aren't subject to the stresses that work against mandolins.

    Recently, a friend offered me my choice of several vintage cylinder back Vega mandolins in fine condition between 100 and 120 years old. We've known each other a long time and I trust him, I just do not really understand how mandolins age. How long are mandolins good for? Does an instrument that is nearly a century old have a lot of life in it? I know mandolins open up in time, though when mandolinists speak of that I find they tend to speak in terms of time that is much shorter than what fiddlers think. How long is it from the time a well cared for mandolin peaks til its voice begins to degrade.

    I know this is a complicated set of questions and there is no simple answer, but your input would be much appreciated.
    Bear in mind that all the really old violins have been substantially reworked since they were new. Once a pristine 19-teens Gibson is 150 years old, it will probably need some love, too, but we've already seen pretty much all the ways they can fail and have best practices for fixing the problems. The general consensus is that, like violins, mandolins get better with age. While it's not verifiable scientifically, it does indicate that the structure does not have a crippling lifespan limitation as long as the instrument is cared for and maintained.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    I think the only limitation is one's willingness to pay for a repair. Fixing a $25,000 violin is a much easier decision than an old mandolin whose worth might no be more that $2000.

    There is a thread here somewhere where a very beat up old Gibson was restored as a group effort by the many talented Luthier's here on the cafe as a cafe fund raiser. I can't imagine what the cost would have been.
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    Registered User bruce.b's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Did anyone else see the Gibson oval hole that Duane Heilman of Black Bear Ukes restored and just offered FS here? If I hadn’t just ordered one I would have jumped on that. As a player and not a collector that really appealed to me. Best of both worlds. It’s an example of an old Gibson that was pretty shot, and needed major restoration.

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    Kelley Mandolins Skip Kelley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Mandolins are worth playing as long as you like playing and take good care of the instrument! Don't over think it!

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    1. Aren't any 120-year-old Vega cylinder-backs; believe the design is just over a century old (1913?). Vega mandolins from the 19th century would all be bowl-backs. Are you sure you don't mean "bowl-backs?" Much different design from the cylinder-backs. which are rare enough that it would be unusual to be offered the "choice of several."

    2. There's no more reason for a mandolin to have a limited lifespan, than for a violin or any other wooden stringed instrument. I have several century-old mandolins -- Gibson 3-point F-2, Victoria bowl-back, Merrill aluminum bowl-back, Howe-Orme mandolinetto, Washburn bowl-back mandola, Waldo bowl-back mandocello -- and they're all functional. All have needed repairs over their lifespans, but if the repairs are well and professionally done, they don't impair either sound or playability. (They do affect their price and resale value, but I guess that's not your question.)

    3. There are particular possible problems associated with instruments which have been under string tension for a long, long time: mandolins with carved, arched tops can have the tops "sink" or lose some of their arch, and bowl-back mandolins may suffer weakening of their neck/body joints, especially if [a] they've been stored in conditions of excessive heat and/or dryness, and [b] if they've been strung too heavily. These issues aren't inevitable, since other instruments survive century-plus use and storage with no problems, but they're worth checking for.

    Let us know what decision you make.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    If anyone owns any mandolins built by Gibson and signed by Lloyd Loar that have expired due to age I can give an address you can send them to to dispose of them. Thanks, carry on.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Seruntine View Post
    Recently, a friend offered me my choice of several vintage cylinder back Vega mandolins in fine condition between 100 and 120 years old. or mandolin peaks til its voice begins to degrade.
    I will confirm Allen’s observation that Vega cylinder backs go back to about 1913. One significant aging problem to be aware of with CBs is the sinkage on the pickguard side of the top. Many have that problem which I believe is due to the routing out of the top for the pickguard. Not all have that problem but it is fairly common.
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    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruce.b View Post
    Did anyone else see the Gibson oval hole that Duane Heilman of Black Bear Ukes restored and just offered FS here? If I hadn’t just ordered one I would have jumped on that. As a player and not a collector that really appealed to me. Best of both worlds. It’s an example of an old Gibson that was pretty shot, and needed major restoration.
    Yes, I was also very tempted....

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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    These old mandolins should have plenty of life left in them if they are well taken care of and not over-strung.

    It is important to check the braces on these mandolins every year or two.

    Oval hole Gibsons tolerate 10-14-24-40 very well. I would not go any heavier than that on a Vega, a little lighter would be better. Using an 11-16-26-40 set is risky on the old Gibsons and will ruin a Vega or old Martin.

    Old mandolins [and guitars] are not nearly as easy to take apart as violins. Taking them apart can generally be avoided by treating them a little more gently than you would a modern instrument. Most modern instruments are built more heavily than the old-timers.

    Cylinder back Vegas are wonderful instruments.

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    Registered User Tim N's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    There must be much older lutes and other such instruments around, going back centuries. Wouldn't they give some guide as to how mandolins might age?
    "What's that funny guitar thing..?"

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    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    3. There are particular possible problems associated with instruments which have been under string tension for a long, long time: mandolins with carved, arched tops can have the tops "sink" or lose some of their arch
    This is the main issue I've noticed. I talked to handsome and famous luthier Frank Ford about this, in reference to a teens mandola I purchased. His view at the time was that if the top hadn't started to sink badly after a hundred years it would probably still be okay for a while. The really fragile old instruments probably self-destructed before we have a chance to worry about buying one.

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    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    . . . or the glue of the transverse brace fails. On my A3, that's what happened. I noticed some top deformation and sent the mandolin off to Lou Stiver. He reglued the brace and it's been fine ever since. The problem with old instruments is that the owners need to be mindful that things can change from decade to decade and it takes a familiar eye to make sure the instrument doesn't implode!

    f-d
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    Registered User THart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    I've looked at some older instruments but have been to leery to buy one (more guitars than mandolins but a couple of mandolins too). Probably just a lack of knowledge. I bought a 2005 guitar that needs a neck set. So there ya go.

  26. #23

    Default Re: Old Mandolins--How Long Are They Worth Playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If anyone owns any mandolins built by Gibson and signed by Lloyd Loar that have expired due to age I can give an address you can send them to to dispose of them. Thanks, carry on.
    I have a couple of them out in the wood pile. I'll ship 'em over.

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