Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: Ergonomics of an F style

  1. #1

    Default Ergonomics of an F style

    I find myself coveting F style mandolins, not for the style, though they are beautiful, but for those two points on the treble-side. How the top point would rest on the left leg when slightly elevated, while the bottom point anchors against the right leg.

    For those with both F and A styles, does that ring true? Or do the points not come into play as much as it seems they would? I've played one F style at the local shop, and it seemed quite comfy. I may just be rationalizing 😁

    I wonder if any builders consider making an F without the scroll? Like the mandolin in the link below, but without the base-side point?

    https://themandoshop.com/weber-mando...-14294307.html

    That Weber is pretty nice BTW...

  2. #2
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,874

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Every now and again a pointless mandolin with a scroll shows up. I rarely play sitting down but I see that the points could be pressed into use. The only A style signed by Lloyd Loar and built by Gibson was the Ms. Griffith Loar. She wanted the A style because she thought the points would dig into her leg.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  3. #3
    Registered User Kevin Stueve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    475

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I just changed from an A to F style. My A I always wore a strap. It was the only way to keep it where I wanted. The F when seated sits just where I want thanks to those points.

  4. The following members say thank you to Kevin Stueve for this post:


  5. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Sierra Nevada Land CA
    Posts
    101

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I guess it depends if you wear a strap or not. I play standing as much as sitting. Good luck playing standing without a strap.

    . The strap is also helpful when sitting. Your mandolin stays in place. One less dynamic to consider while playing.
    Eastman MD 515
    1991 33SB Gemeinhardt Flute
    1996 Yamaha YAS 62 Alto Sax

  6. #5
    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Auburn, Washington
    Posts
    1,553

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I play both styles and use a strap standing and sitting. Even my F doesn't "feel right" without one.

  7. The following members say thank you to Zach Wilson for this post:

    Tobin 

  8. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    If you gotta have a F style, you can always justify it one way or another. I play A's for financial reasons. I put my money on the sound. That's my justification for A's.

  9. #7
    Registered User Michael Neverisky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    New England, USA
    Posts
    235
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I know that Mike Marshall and Chris Thile and others lean over, almost curl around their mandolins and can see how the points are useful to them. Compare their sitting posture to that of David Benedict who, I think, will have fewer back problems in the future.

  10. #8
    Registered User Mando Mort's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Estero, FL
    Posts
    281

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I have played both styles and like the F style partly for the reason you mention. Works sitting down with or without the strap.

  11. #9
    Registered User jdchapman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roanoke
    Posts
    264

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I mostly play A’s. They sit fine against my leg. I guess it depends on your posture.

  12. The following members say thank you to jdchapman for this post:


  13. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    4,786

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    The points do help when seated, as mentioned, but F Styles also tend to give some headstock dive if you let go of them while standing (with a strap, of course ). I could probably prevent that by putting the strap on the headstock, but then you’re wasting that built in strap hanger!!

    If you want an F, get an F, but I’ve found that I adapt pretty easily to whichever mandolin I have in hand at the time (I play mostly As but do play my Eastman 315 a lot). You might be able to talk a luthier into building you a 2 or 3 point mandolin without a scroll as well, but they’d likely have to build new molds/gigs (or maybe not, I’m no luthier)...
    Chuck

  14. #11
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cornwall & London
    Posts
    2,921
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I like a two-pointer with no bits to compromise the curves.
    My mandolins never end up near my legs so any extra gubbins on the lower side would be just for looks.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DA3E76E7-6985-49D5-852C-82BD281FE2DF.jpeg 
Views:	114 
Size:	811.3 KB 
ID:	163877

    No strap means no end-pin needed either.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	279FE77E-C6D2-4F41-9984-B45F845E1D69.jpeg 
Views:	116 
Size:	788.3 KB 
ID:	163878
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  15. The following members say thank you to Beanzy for this post:


  16. #12
    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Auburn, Washington
    Posts
    1,553

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    I like a two-pointer with no bits to compromise the curves.
    My mandolins never end up near my legs so any extra gubbins on the lower side would be just for looks.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DA3E76E7-6985-49D5-852C-82BD281FE2DF.jpeg 
Views:	114 
Size:	811.3 KB 
ID:	163877

    No strap means no end-pin needed either.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	279FE77E-C6D2-4F41-9984-B45F845E1D69.jpeg 
Views:	116 
Size:	788.3 KB 
ID:	163878
    Are you able to play standing up/ swaying/ dancing this way? I'm very impressed.

  17. #13

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Sounds like a lot of people are playing standing! As a novice, I'm almost always seated when practicing. I'm getting the impression that I should practice both!

    I always wear a strap, but my instrument continues to slide around in my lap, and has a noticeable preference for headstock dive whether sitting or standing.

    I think I'll target a nice wide sticky strap and see how I feel. Maybe even a tone guard for a bit of belly traction. I've heard that attaching the strap to the headstock puts a bit of undue stress on the neck? Mine is tethered to the joint at the heel where a button might be on a nicer mandolin. It's definitely not the balance point, probably because of the truss rod.

    Interesting. Food for thought.

  18. #14
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    The lower point against the thigh makes logical sense when playing seated, as Mike Marshall points out in this video on mandolin tips. But the actual ergonomics will depend on your body size and shape.

    I'm 6'2" with a fairly long upper torso. If I rest the mandolin on my thigh, as in that Mike Marshall video, I end up too hunched over. So I always use a strap with my F-style to raise it into a good playing position, with the neck angled up. As someone who plays mostly Irish/Scottish trad, I'm sitting down most of the time at a session or gig. Occasionally I've played for dancers at a contradance, and that's usually standing. Using a strap keeps the mandolin in the same position whether I'm seated or standing.

    One other ergonomic tip if you're considering an F-style: get a ToneGard, which may help a little with volume, but also has the major benefit of adding a little weight towards the bottom of an F-style mandolin, balancing the large headstock.

  19. #15
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cornwall & London
    Posts
    2,921
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Wilson View Post
    Are you able to play standing up/ swaying/ dancing this way? I'm very impressed.
    Yes, though I’m not much nto dancing while performing, I do go for a wander while playing and swap instruments during some songs.. it’s not hard as the instrument shape works well when held fairly high. I tend to sit or use a strap with the mandoloncello as I need to hold that lower
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  20. #16
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Quote Originally Posted by colonelcurry View Post
    I wonder if any builders consider making an F without the scroll? Like the mandolin in the link below, but without the base-side point?
    There was the Rigel Q95 which I liked the modernized A-3 look with that added point but preferred it with the vertical soundhole. I am sure that Peter Langdell will still make you one.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Q200wStand.jpg 
Views:	109 
Size:	79.1 KB 
ID:	163900 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RigelQ95.jpg 
Views:	104 
Size:	124.4 KB 
ID:	163901
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  21. #17

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Just realize you want a scroll for no good reason and go get one. No need to rationalize. Rational thought and mandolins don't work well together. Also, make sure it is flamey. While you're at it, throw in some fancy inlay. Then go drive your car for another ten years.
    Silverangel A
    Arches F style kit
    1913 Gibson A-1

  22. The following members say thank you to Br1ck for this post:


  23. #18
    Worlds ok-ist mando playr Zach Wilson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Auburn, Washington
    Posts
    1,553

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    So, after reading this again I decided to actually think about how my F sits when I sit and play.

    Here Are my findings... for what it's worth.

    The front lower point does not ever come close to contact with my legs and if it did rest on my thigh it would be terribly uncomfortable as I would be very hunched over.

    The rear point doesn't rest against my thigh either but sits in between my legs slightly closer to my right thigh but not at all touching. The back edge of the mandolin is resting however. My A shape sits the same. If the point is coming in contact with my leg it is very soft and wouldn't give that much support.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20180110_174731.jpg 
Views:	104 
Size:	551.7 KB 
ID:	163908

  24. #19
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Wilson View Post
    So, after reading this again I decided to actually think about how my F sits when I sit and play.

    Here Are my findings... for what it's worth.

    The front lower point does not ever come close to contact with my legs and if it did rest on my thigh it would be terribly uncomfortable as I would be very hunched over.

    The rear point doesn't rest against my thigh either but sits in between my legs slightly closer to my right thigh but not at all touching. The back edge of the mandolin is resting however. My A shape sits the same. If the point is coming in contact with my leg it is very soft and wouldn't give that much support.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20180110_174731.jpg 
Views:	104 
Size:	551.7 KB 
ID:	163908
    Zach, it must be very hard to play mandolin horizontally, regardless of what style of mandolin you play.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jim Garber For This Useful Post:


  26. #20
    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Banner, Ky
    Posts
    2,654

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I play and appreciate the bottom points of an F style build. I play seated, do not use a strap on a F style, and for me the bottom points definitely help to position the mando and brings less body tension into my playing. If playing an A, i need a strap while seated.

    Im starting an A style build soon and plan to incorperate two bottom points, i may put a 3rd on top for style, havent spent enough time considering that fully yet.

  27. #21
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Manchester - Lancashire - NW England
    Posts
    14,187

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Beanzy - That looks like one of Mr Davidson's offerings ?. It's beautiful as all of Phil's work is.

    I always use a strap on any mandolin,sitting or standing. It's the only way that i can keep them in place. I have my "F" styles so that the bottom point is just above my waist band - the 'gunslinger' option just doesn't work for me (on Guitar either). I find having it a tad higher & holding it at 45 deg.to my body,i can hear everything very well,& it's very comfortable,
    Ivan
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Trio 2.jpg 
Views:	101 
Size:	154.8 KB 
ID:	163914
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

  28. #22
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cornwall & London
    Posts
    2,921
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    Yep it’s an amazing piece of craftsmanship. Some very novel techniques used in the construction.
    Definitely important to have that open angle to keep the arms relaxed, sound uncompromised and saves on any fatigue too.
    I like high positions, my arm actually comes in below the tailpiece line, so it’s not even held by any pressure just sits there steady as a rock & the forearm ends up in-line with the strings which makes for a nice flat stroke across the courses.
    They’re great designs these things.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  29. The following members say thank you to Beanzy for this post:


  30. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    High Peak - UK
    Posts
    4,171

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    As usual, its largely a matter of personal preference. I' m mindful that Simon Mayor always plays seated and the late Red Rector always played standing and neither use(d) a strap.

  31. #24
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Upstate N.Y.
    Posts
    1,331

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    I play both ,F and As,,,the A models I never use a strap,that's how I started when I was young and when you get used to it,offers the most in freedom,,I play the F more,with strap at the scroll,looped over just my right shoulder, feels right and has adjustable options just by shifting around,,the points don't do much really,whether sitting or standing with a strap..

  32. #25
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kerrville, TX
    Posts
    4,004

    Default Re: Ergonomics of an F style

    The points on an F-style are indeed handy if you're playing seated ,and don't have a strap, and can elevate your left leg on a footstool, and don't mind hunching over to play. I played like that for years until I realized that it was the only way I could play the mandolin. Trying to stand up and play was so different that it totally threw me out of my normal position. So I put a strap on my mandolin and started standing up to play. That changed a LOT of things about my playing posture and ergonomics. So now, even when I sit to play, I use my strap and play in the same upper-body position as I do when standing. My mandolin is not low enough to get the use of those points on my legs, nor am I hunching over to utilize them.

    So for me personally, the points are just decoration at this point. It's the scroll that's important for my playing posture (as a strap-hanger).
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •