Tailpieces: I wasn't a believer til . . .

[Cliff Seruntine]

I decided to replace the tailpiece my Kentucky 272 came with. The lower part was stainless steel, decently heavy and the upper part was stamped brass, according to their website. But I liked the one piece tailpieces, and ordered one, a clone of the Allen AR-2. (Sorry, Allen, I love your tailpieces but I just cannot afford the $45 S&H to Canada, which works out to about $60 CAN). The tailpiece, by AXL, is very high quality--solid cast brass with a good nickel finish, and shipped free.

I had read some say they thought their mandolins sounded better after going with heavier tailpieces. I was dubious that a tailpiece could improve the tone of a mandolin, but it does. In particular, at least on my instrument, what it does is increase the sustain and clarity of the A and E strings, which now ring like clear bells.

Just sayin' . . . if you're considering a tailpiece change, you might be surprised the positive changes you'll get in your instrument's voice.

[Cliff Seruntine]

I've been trying to figure out how to edit the above post but can't find the option. I wanted to clarify about the S&H, it's pretty bad for a Canadian ordering from anywhere in the USA right now, like $45 for a parcel with tracking from almost anywhere. I don't mean to imply that the S&H was jacked up by the maker of Allen tailpieces. It's just a fact of life we in Canada have to deal with right now--blame it on US Post and our own tax-hungry Canadian government. And with the terrible exchange rate . . . well, it's crazy high.

[MikeEdgerton]

You have a limited amount of time to edit a post.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Cliff - I used to buy ALL my banjo / mandolin 'stuff' from the USA until the postage went sky high !. In the UK,we're limited to goods amounting to a total cost of £18 UK ($24.38 US - $30.32 Can.) Add anything to that cost ie. $10 postage, & i'm way over & i'd have to pay UK tax & a UK postal 'handling fee' of £8. It works the other way as well for the folks in the US importing from 'wherever'.
In the UK,for US goods,we can usually be pretty accurate if we substitute UK £s for US $s. A $30 Bluechip pick = a £30 Bluechip pick in the UK = $41 (approx.) US = no darned way !!!!,
Ivan

[Cliff Seruntine]

It is horrible. And even though Canada is right next door to the USA, it sounds like our S&H is much higher. Then there is the provincial HST tax on top, which adds another 15% to the S&H. It is absolutely crazy. Our government lives in this fantasy world where we all have vast sums of money to help them not manage to live within their means. And . . . wow! Did the UK devalue the pound? When I was a kid, 1 pound was worth about $5 USD.

I have always been very big on supporting small business. I'd much rather order directly from private luthiers and clever creators of products like the Tone-Gard. Dealing with the insane S&H makes that almost impossible.

But I envy your access to UK-made mandolins. I love the British and European made instruments. I always hope to one day come across a decent one in an antique store, at a garage sale or maybe sitting in the used section of a music store. But I live in very rural Nova Scotia--only two small villages within an hour of here. The odds are small. Still, I love my current mandolin, so I am not hurting.

The S&H dilemma isn't the sellers' fault. That's the reality for them, too. For me, it just means that I need to carefully plan everything I order to get it all at once.

[jdchapman]

This thread has ended up being more interesting than I thought.

Also explains why on recent vacations to Montreal and London, I was horrified by the prices of instruments relative to home.

[dhergert]

I decided to replace the tailpiece my Kentucky 272 came with.
...
Just sayin' . . . if you're considering a tailpiece change, you might be surprised the positive changes you'll get in your instrument's voice.

While I'm an un-tested believer that a solid, heavy tailpiece will probably change the tone of a mandolin, keep in mind all of the other details that changed when you changed the tailpiece... Every adjustment changes because you at least loosen the strings. Did you put new strings on? Did you adjust the bridge or change it's position at all?

Again, this is not to detract from a tailpiece change, but we tend to forget every other thing that changes when we do something like this... Same goes for changing the bridge. To some extent even adjusting the truss rod can make a difference in sound.

For another very popular example, even simply adding a ToneGard changes multiple details... In addition to separating the mandolin from the player's body, it adds weight to the mandolin and adds a small degree of contact and compression to the sides.

The mandolin is a holistic, breathing organism. Every change counts.

(And then the subjective nature of human hearing is another side of this discussion...)

[Cliff Seruntine]

Did you put new strings on? Did you adjust the bridge or change it's position at all?

No, it's the same GHS Silk & Steel strings. I taped the bridge in place so it would not have moved much. Everything else is the same. But the sustain and bell-like clarity of the A and E strings is very noticeable since changing the tailpieces. It's not a "I think it's better". It's definitely clearer with more sustain. Of course, whether that's an improvement depends on if that is what one is looking for. For me, it is exactly what I want.

[Brian Harris]

It seems adding mass, particularly on a moving part, would make some different. A heavier tailpiece would be more resistant to moving and thus sapping energy from the string.

I am not an engineer... just another ill-informed idea now on the Internet.

[Spencer]

There is a older thread about this, as I remember, most didn't find big differences.

Older thread: Adding-a-Cast-Tailpiece

I changed from a stamped to an Allen some years ago, and really couldn't tell the difference. Had the builder put it on, and he couldn't notice any difference either. Probably depends some on the mandolin and the quality of the original tailpiece.

Glad it helped yours.

Spencer

[MikeEdgerton]

I hope folks hear a difference after they make the change because they took the time and spent the money. Beyond that I can't hear any difference between them.

[Cliff Seruntine]

I did not think the tailpiece would do much for the tone either, due to simple physics and the fact the tailpiece is not a resonant part of the instrument. But, I can hypothesize that the heavier tailpiece may work to dampen interfering harmonics, which causes the strings to sound with more clarity. Or it may be that the more massive tailpiece damps transfer of energy to non-acoustic parts such as the ribs, and some of that energy is thus added to vibration in the bridge. That would be my guess.

Of course, there is a kind of placebo effect: People want to believe the nice and expensive upgrades have improved their instruments quality, and that desire to believe is a powerful thing. I don't think that's the case with my instrument because the improvement isn't subtle. It really stands out.

[mandobassman]

This is a subject that, at one point in time, I would have dismissed as nonsense. I had changed tailpieces on a few mandolins to one-piece Allen, or equivalent, and had never detected the slightest difference in tone, volume, or sustain. That is until I installed the Orricco tailpiece on my J Bovier A5. I bought it because I love the look of the piece and prefer that style for easier string changing. What I didn't expect was the rather drastic change in tone. Didn't notice any difference in volume or sustain, but the tone, especially in the mids, was noticeably different. Different enough that I wasn't sure if I was going to keep it. It took some getting used to but I eventually decided I liked the change. It convinced me that it can make a difference but it depends on what mandolin it is being installed on. Now I know why some say they have never heard a change and why some say it totally changed.

[mandobassman]

Of course, there is a kind of placebo effect: People want to believe the nice and expensive upgrades have improved their instruments quality, and that desire to believe is a powerful thing...

That was what I always thought. I figured people were convinced of a change because the had convinced themselves of it the minute they spent the money. That wasn't the case for me. I was totally convinced there would be NO difference. I was shocked to hear otherwise.

[Beanzy]

I found if the tailpiece has issues then the change could have a big effect.
I did the one on my KM150 afew years back and it improved a lot. The issues with that tailpiece were basically down to poor construction in fairly soft tin and an original installation that was misaligned.
The original one was touching the top just where the strings leave the tailpiece. Bending it up just got pulled back into the old position touching the arch top again.
On fitting the new one I found the old fitting had been done out of alignment and the end pin needed realignment too.
The alignment issue wasn’t initially obvious to the eye as it was subsequently twisted into position which was obscured by the sliding cover. I went for an Allen one due to the rigidity of the construction. That and a subsequent bridge & tuner replacements turned it into a fairly good mandolin which has tided me through a good few years & still gets used out and about.
Not sure you’d get any real benefit beyond aesthetics on a mandolin with higher quality components and fittings, but it was a good improvement on this one.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Mike E. - "..... because they took the time ..". Maybe i was lucky. I put my Allen t/piece on my very first mandolin,a Michael Kelly 'Legacy' only a couple of weeks after buying it. I was blissfully unaware of the different screw/tailpin hole patterns. Fortunately,both the 'tin' MK tailpiece & the new Allen tailpieces were absolutely identical hole wise. It took me 20 minutes at most to remove the strings & old t/piece & fit the new Allen t/piece & again,fortunately,it was as perfect as could be. The difference was immediately noticeable regarding the sustain. As i mentioned in my previous post,thinking about it now,i suspect that the ill fitting 'tin' t/piece was somehow damping any sustain = the string energy that might have been passed to the mandolin body,was being taken up in ''moving'' the old t/piece bits. However,it certainly didn't ''rattle'' or buzz.

It seems that Eoin had a similar problem. The fit & installation of the t/piece on my MK was atrocious. The base was off to one side,& the cover must have been put on with a sledge hammer. I had to very carefully use a scredriver to prise it off. I'd tried pushing it off / pulling it off / lightly hammering it off - immoveable !. I played it without the cover until my Allen t/piece arrived & then ''all was light & joy'' !!. The MK was a tad 'thin' sounding as it was very lightly built,but having learned a lot (mostly via the Cafe), i wish i'd had the sense to keep it to see if i could have made it sound ''better''. For a £350 ($470 US) mandolin,it played & sounded pretty good at the time,
Ivan
(Banjo & mandolin now 'gone')

[fatt-dad]

I like the twelve-chad, stamped tailpieces. I don't think it makes any difference. That's what's on my 1920 A3 and I have no intentions of changing out a lightweight tailpiece for a heavy tailpiece.

I also like that we all think differently.

f-d

[pops1]

I have a heavy tailpiece, brass, with a brass cover. My mandolin sounds better with the cover off lowering the mass than it does with the cover on. It is a simple change and takes only like two seconds so nothing is disturbed or changed but the mass and I can hear the difference. It's not that I am wanting to play it without the cover, just want the best sound. While adding mass may change your plain strings for the better adding mass for my mandolin changed the wound strings for the worse and the plain strings sounded good both ways. I don't hear much being said about the wound strings sounding better in any discussion of a tailpiece change to more mass. I also agree with fat-dad the stamped tailpiece on my old Gibson sounds heavenly and I wouldn't change it for the world.

[fatt-dad]

p.s., I also kept the cloud on my pancake!

f-d

[jhammond]

I replaced the stamped tailpiece on my Ratliff with an Allen tailpiece. I do not notice much, if any, difference in sound but do like the Allen tailpiece in general. Main reason I changed was because the original almost 20 year old tailpiece seemed like it was starting to get weak and lay down or drop down on the top of my Mandolin. I considered getting another stamped but I found the Allen used at a very good price so I tried it. It seems like it will hold up much better over time due to the quality and craftsmanship. And I plan on the mandolin being around as long as I am.

[T.D.Nydn]

The mandolin is a holistic, breathing organism. ...)[/QUOTE]
..this should be on a plaque or something..

[Ivan Kelsall]

Holistic ! - You want 'Holistic ? ' here goes,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

You want 'Holistic ? ' here goes

That must be the luthier equivalent of "better to ask forgiveness than to seek permission" - I like that. Now where is my power drill - must try a truly hole-istic approach!

[pops1]

I knew my shop was missing a useful tool, thanks Ivan.

[Steve Ostrander]

I might possibly believe that a TP may give more sustain, possibly more volume, but I have a hard time believing that it could change the tone. But I have never swapped a TP so I have no direct experience.