Bridges: Rosewood vs Ebony

[Cliff Seruntine]

I know ebony vs rosewood bridges has been discussed before, and I've read most of the threads. There seems to be a clear bias among mandolinists on this forum for ebony bridges. I am debating putting an ebony bridge on my Kentucky 272, perhaps one of the Cumberland Acoustic bridges.

I presently have the stock bridge, which I believe is rosewood. With that bridge and my current setup of GHS Silk & Steel strings, Allen AR-2 tailpiece and Gotoh tuners, the instrument gives me a sweet, warm voice with a long sustain, which I like a great deal. But I have read repeatedly among mandolinists that ebony yields better results.

Yet I have played fiddle a long time and there is a reason fiddlers prefer maple bridges. Maple, comparatively lower in density, yields great acoustics from the lower tension violin's strings.

And on guitar forums, most guitarists have a strong preference for rosewood bridges. In fact, a luthier on one of the forums described rosewood as having lower density and mass but nearly equal hardness to ebony, meaning rosewood gave lower impedance, which allowed sound energy to travel from strings to soundboard more easily. Guitarists reported richer mid-range tones and more volume with rosewood bridges.

So...I am wondering if mandolinists prefer ebony bridges mainly because it is tradition. If the S&H for the Cumberland Acoustics weren't so high to Canada, I'd just get one and compare and keep whichever one sounded better on the instrument.

Your thoughts are welcomed.

[Willie Poole]

I`ve never owned a mandolin with a Rosewood or any other wood except ebony so I can`t say which would sound best on YOUR mandolin. like most things you will have to try one and see what you prefer, bridges, strings, and picks are things that most people change and try to the sound they prefer, your idea of a good sound might differ from anyone else`s...Most any good ebony bridge will do but from my experience you can`t beat dealing with the folks at CA, Steve will not lead you astray....He makes a great product...I replaced the stock bridge on my Kentucky KM-956 with a CA bridge and love the sound that it has.....

Willie

[sblock]

There is really very little difference between ebony and rosewood for a Gibson-style, adjustable mandolin bridge, in my opinion. Most of the differences one can hear, from one bridge to the next, are more likely attributable to the following factors, ranked more-or-less in order of importance:

1) Proper fit between the bridge base and the mandolin top
2) Contact area of the base and the top (including full-contact or two-footed bases)
3) Overall mass of the bridge base
4) Thickness/mass/height of the saddle portion
5) Mass and construction of the metal hardware
6) Compensation of the saddle portion; slotting of the saddle

Popular notions of the "acoustic impedance" between the plucked string and vibrating top tend to be greatly oversimplified, because these move in entirely different modes, and the reflected energy at the string-bridge saddle and or the bridge base-top boundary is NOT a major source of loss -- the damping is! It is therefore not true that rosewood confers more energy (ergo volume) to the top than ebony with a high-tension string instrument, despite some anecdotes from guitarists and what you might have read somewhere. The harder woods tend to exhibit less damping, and both rosewood and ebony are nearly equal in this regard. But ebony is just a bit harder, on average -- it comes down to what pieces of wood you actually have, since much of the natural range of hardness overlaps for these two woods!

And yes, ebony is traditional. But I'd suggest trying to refit your rosewood bridge before springing for a new CA (or other ebony) bridge. It might surprise you.

But if that doesn't help, then by all means get a CA ebony bridge. I agree with the others that Steve is a pleasure to work with, and he makes an excellent product. But don't count on it making a huge difference. If you seek a significant improvement, save up your Canadian dollars and buy a higher-end mandolin. Kentuckys are fairly good instruments, and also great values for the amount of money spent, but it is possible to do much better. That's what MAS is all about!

P.S. And no, I really doubt that your Kentucky 272 (oval hole, but modeled on an A5 form) has "long sustain." I don't think "long sustain" is characteristic of any mandolin. Just compare any mandolin with an octave mandolin (or even a mandola) side-to-side, for example, and you'll find that the sound peters out much more quickly on the mandolin. It can't be helped. If you prefer long sustain, get another kind of instrument, because an acoustic mandolin will never deliver it. Or electrify your mandolin.

[Cliff Seruntine]

I have sent a few queries to Steve at Cumberland and he's been very helpful. I will probably eventually get a CA bridge to try it out. It's just the S&H to Canada is--ouch! Like almost as much as the bridge ouch! It will be an expensive experiment if I end up preferring the rosewood bridge.

[pops1]

I would change strings and picks first, and as sblock says," fit the bridge you have first". Silk and steel strings have never been a great string for guitar let alone mandolin. GHS makes a silk and bronze, if you want the less tension silk gets you, and they and they are a very good sounding string. The difference in picks is just short of amazing in how much it can change the sound of a mandolin. Kind of like a bow can change a violin. Not every pick works for every mandolin, there is way to much difference in the sound between them. I do think an oval hole mandolin has more sustain than an ff hole, tho my ff hole has a lot of sustain, for a mandolin. Is it like a guitar, no, does it last longer than 10 seconds, yes. Lots of changes you can try besides the bridge, if none of them blows your dress up call Steve and spend the $$ for a nice new bridge. I have gotten a rosewood bridge from Steve, also ebony, I have ebony on my mandolin, the rosewood didn't make the difference I was looking for, but went on another mandolin and sounds great. Enjoy the changes that are easy first, h.... enjoy the whole experience.

[peter.coombe]

I don't think "long sustain" is characteristic of any mandolin.

Ha, you obviously have not seen any of my recent new models of oval hole mandolins. They seem to ring on forever. So, I respectively disagree.

Back to the bridge. You will most likely like the Cumberland bridge. I have changed some unknown wood (most likely rosewood)bridges on some of the Asian import mandolins to Ebony, and the sound improvement is immediately obvious.

[rockies]

I think that you are doing a comparison of oranges, apples and peaches. Archtop F hole mandolins, violins and flat top guitars develop their sounds in totally different ways. So to compare bridge materials on those really doesn't prove much. Bridge material comparisons on the same instrument would mean a whole lot more. IMHO
Daves

[dhergert]

My observation is that if you even just loosen the strings and then tune them back up to pitch, the mandolin will sound different -- part of that is the subjective nature of human hearing, but also, there are just too many other things that are affected when you change a bridge to only attribute the change in sound to the different bridge itself.

So if you want to change how the instrument sounds, start with new strings and then go on down the line to every possible adjustment before you start changing out hardware. Might also want to consider a ToneGard and an armrest.

Lastly, personally, all else being equal, if the fingerboard is rosewood, I'd stay with a rosewood bridge.

[Mandoplumb]

You said in your first post that you liked the sound, why change anything. One mandolin I had loved the silk and steel strings, but trying different strings would be a lot cheeper than bridge and they have to be changed regulary any way. I'd say if you like the sound save your money the bridge won't make a big difference.IMHO

[peter.coombe]

No harm in getting a new bridge and suck it and see. I say go for it.

[James Miller]

Not to go off subject, wonder if anyone has used iron wood for a bridge and/or fret board. that sure would looks pretty cool if someone did. Is there a thread that shows off mandolins with fancier & exotic woods being used?

[peter.coombe]

I have used all sorts of woods, various species of Maple and various native Australian woods, plus have tried different woods in bridges. Have a look around my web page. I assume you mean iron wood from the USA which I have not tried, but have tried iron wood from NSW Australia which is similar. It makes great fingerboards, but I did not care for it in bridges. After all the experimenting with woods for bridges I ended up coming back to Ebony because I preferred the sound of Ebony. However, some mandolins do benefit from a Brazilian Rosewood saddle, it is a bit louder and brighter and with a nice sparkle to the treble when compared to Ebony. Indian Rosewood saddles have a different sound that I did not like.

[Ivan Kelsall]

What wood is used for a stock Kentucky mandolin bridge ?. Are they Rosewood or Ebony ?. Ebony can be almost any shade from light coloured to black.

I'd go with sblock's suggestion & re-fit the bridge as perfectly as possible. After that,try a different brand(s) of string & a few different pick types. If doing that brings no acceptable 'difference',then try a CA bridge,
Ivan

[Tavy]

Since we're talking in generalities here:

Maple: I'm not keen on at all - it's mighty loud, but way too bright for me.
Rosewood/Ebony: Not much to choose between them provided they're made from really good quality hard wood. One thing I've found with rosewood is that it's more likely to be a bit friable, and not make such good clean contact with the strings, a bone saddle would of course fix that. Don't underestimate how big a part wood quality plays here, there are some really shoddy poor quality bridges available, and also some really decent ones... the difference in sound between them will far outweigh wood choice.

[Cliff Seruntine]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Lot's of good advice. I always really liked the voice of my Kentucky 272 as it was, but I've dabbled in instrument making and repair and can't help but tinker from time to time, always looking for the next improvement.

The seller said the stock bridge was rosewood, but Saga only lists the Kentucky bridges as "tonewood", which tells me they probably use whatever they have of good quality, or whatever is right for the tone of the given instrument. Kentucky is one of China's better makers and I think they will be the next Eastman, which is to say surprisingly good manufacturer to appear out of Asia. I'm glad I got one before their prices shoot up. To me, the bridge looks like moderately dark ebony, judging by the grain of the wood. The setup of the bridge is pretty close to perfect. One couldn't even slip a piece of paper between the bridge and top and it's almost perfectly situated.

Truth is, I really like the Kentucky 272's voice. There is no imperative reason to change it. I was just thinking of tinkering to try to push for an improvement. But I've tried high end Eastmans and some very expensive antiques that I haven't liked as much as the voice of my 272, which is why I have never "upgraded". So, barring a problem down the road, I'll keep things as they are. Should the bridge ever fail, I'll either make a one piece bridge out of some local ironwood or get one of Cumberland's bridges. I believe, from everything I've read, that a Cumberland Acoustic bridge would probably make a slight improvement, but probably only marginally. Of course, only an experiment could confirm that, but it would be a $100+ dollar experiment, given cost of S&H to Canada and our absurdly high taxes, so I'll probably wait on that experiment if/til the present bridge fails.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Cliff - ".... Kentucky is one of China's better makers and I think they will be the next Eastman,..". ''Kentucky'' as a mandolin maker ''arrived'' a long while back !!. I think that the general consensus of opininon here,is that a good Kentucky mandolin,can be of a higher quality ''tonally'' than Eastman mandolins. Indeed,the tonal qualitie's of the Kentucky KM900 / 956 "A" style mandolins are viewed as little less than superb by many Cafe owners,& i am NOT knocking the quality of Eastman mandolins. It's simply that in many aspects,Kentucky have 'nailed it' for tone - however,that is a matter of personal taste,
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with Ivan Kentucky doesn't need to "arrive" they did in the 70's. Probably one of the first " PAC rims" that was more than junk.

[Cliff Seruntine]

I knew Kentucky had been around awhile, but they don't turn up much (at least in this part of Canada). I'd never even heard of them til I heard of their Artist series, not even when I owned a music store. Is it possible that while they've been around a while, they are just starting to develop momentum in terms of being more broadly discovered?

[Mandoplumb]

I knew Kentucky had been around awhile, but they don't turn up much (at least in this part of Canada). I'd never even heard of them til I heard of their Artist series, not even when I owned a music store. Is it possible that while they've been around a while, they are just starting to develop momentum in terms of being more broadly discovered?

I played a friends top Kentucky I think the model was 1000 in the mid or late 70's. Was not the first I had heard of them but to best of my memory was the first I had played. Have seen and played many since, both owned by pickers I met and in music stores, so in the blue ridge mountains I'd say they have been around and well know for some time.

[Sothoth]

I tried a few inexpensive mandolins and upgraded certain parts to dial in the best tone to my ear. My experience was that, on an Eastman 315, changing the tailpiece to a cast Allen made a big difference. The tone was tinny before, warmer after. Similar results on an inexpensive OM.

That same OM came with a rosewood bridge. I changed it to ebony and can’t tell any difference. I think the previous comments about it depending on the quality and hardness of the wood rather than the species may be accurate.

I can’t comment on fit to the body but I’d try adjustments first. A new bridge may be fun to tinker with so maybe if you try it, be sure to report back

[almeriastrings]

I knew Kentucky had been around awhile, but they don't turn up much (at least in this part of Canada). I'd never even heard of them til I heard of their Artist series, not even when I owned a music store. Is it possible that while they've been around a while, they are just starting to develop momentum in terms of being more broadly discovered?

No.

They have had momentum for years. Part of the same group that involves Blueridge (guitars), Trinity College, and Gold Star banjos.

They have had an enviable reputation for decades.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From almeriastrings - " They have had momentum for years. Part of the same group that involves Blueridge (guitars), Trinity College, and Gold Star banjos." One of the ''SAGA group'' instruments,& as almeria rightly states,they do have a great reputation.

Cliff - It's very possible indeed,that like many parts of the USA even,that you simply have a shortage of choice in mandolins in your part of Canada. In the UK,we have one good store,where you'll find an array of high quality mandolins. Other stores might have a 'used' good one in from time to time,but that's it !. The Kentucky brand has gained a great reputation for build & tone quality,especially as i posted,their KM900 / KM956 "A" styles. The KM900 is believed to have been modelled after the only know Lloyd Loar "A" style mandolin,''The Griffiths Loar'',& from what i've read on here,they are awesome sounding mandolins. They come up for sale 'used' every now & again,& if you can find a good one at a fair price - go for it & you'll own a superb mandolin by ANY standards !,
Ivan

[CES]

I replaced the pretty shoddy rosewood bridge on my Kentucky 675-S with an adjustable ebony bridge from Stew MAC, and it made a very noticeable positive difference. And, was much less expensive than a CA. Don’t mean to knock CA at all, Steve is building some of the best bridges available. Just pointing out that there may be less expensive ways to piddle

[sblock]

When you change out a bridge from rosewood to ebony, you are not just changing out the wood. At the same time, you are also refitting a bridge base to the top. You are often getting a different contact area. You are changing out the slots in the saddle, and you are often changing details of the metal hardware, as well. All these things affect the tone, and so one should not be too quick to assign any perceived differences in sound to the mere fact that the wood was changed. More often than not, a bunch of other things changed, too. And changing a "shoddy" rosewood bridge for a "decent" (or better) ebony bridge is probably an upgrade, regardless of the wood type!

[Drew Streip]

CES and sblock have nailed it... I changed out the old bridge on my old laminate mando. Even after thoroughly fitting, the saddle was leaning, the posts were no longer vertical (relative to the base) and they fit quite loosely into the holes in the saddle. The wood also felt soft.

I put a $17 LMI ebony adjustable bridge on it. After fitting and cutting new slots, it's a remarkable difference. However, as sblock noted, a LOT of things changed in the process, even how snugly the bridge posts fit in the saddle.

As a tinkerer, I endorse trying something new. Just know that every single thing you change is an additional variable and resign yourself to accepting a certain amount of "intangibles," as it were.

Or, as I think of it: Is this change better? Good! Is this change worse? Oops -- why? I like to accept the positive and fix the negative.