Hoffee Vs. Austin Calton

[Jill McAuley]

Re: storage space, I have a Price Streamline case and it has pretty decent storage - I'm off to my luthier today to get some Rubner tuners put on it and they're in the storage pocket with room to spare for a cleaning cloth, picks, and the little tools for tightening my McClung armrest.

[doc holiday]

CH The Hoffee is considerably bigger than the Calton which can potentially make a difference if you fly on smaller planes. I'll send you a pm.

[AMandolin]

Yep, the hoffee has a bit more storage. You really can’t fit a pack of boxed strings in the calton pocket. It has to go under the headstock.
Also I said clear coat it’s supposed to say gelcoat

[Macabre]

Yeah a winder, some picks, a cloth, a clip on tuner, and some strings would be nice. Anyone have a picture of the current Calton storage area?

[mtucker]

Anyone have a picture of the current Calton storage area?

I can help with that:

J74 strings (tight fit) = $5
Ebony tuner button (extra) = $5
Assorted Picks = $5 ea.
Hines (roo) mandolin strap = $50
Ample room for a small clip-on tuner = $30
Western Diamondback -taken in West Texas (13 rattles) and cooked over mesquite = Priceless!

[Macabre]

I love that strap! I wish they were still being made. i would love on!

[J.Albert]

As Jill mentioned above, a Price case is another consideration.

Also, why not a Presto?

[mtucker]

I love that strap! I wish they were still being made. i would love on!

Check with christie@cartervintage.com I think she still has them. Ask for the 'roo' strap, the best scroll harness imo.

[foldedpath]

As Jill mentioned above, a Price case is another consideration.

Also, why not a Presto?

Or a Pegasus? User-customized for external color and internal trim. It probably has the smallest amount of storage due to the compact shape, but it's enough for clip-on tuner, picks, and extra strings. The svelte shape makes for easy packing in a car or airplane overhead too. I love my Pegasus case, had it for years now and it's always done a great job of protecting and transporting my mandolin.

[almeriastrings]

Or a Pegasus? User-customized for external color and internal trim. It probably has the smallest amount of storage due to the compact shape, but it's enough for clip-on tuner, picks, and extra strings. The svelte shape makes for easy packing in a car or airplane overhead too. I love my Pegasus case, had it for years now and it's always done a great job of protecting and transporting my mandolin.

Big fan of the Pegasus here too... very fine case. You can get a spare set of strings under the headstock storage cover, and a pick, tuner, etc. in the under-neck area. Not exactly loads of storage, but it does the essentials. I also have one of the very last UK-made Caltons.. a bit more storage there, though I prefer the Peg generally.

[Heykoolaid3]

Do you have the backpack option? If so, how is it? If not, how easy is it to have on your shoulder through airports,etc?

[Ivan Kelsall]

From EricC - "...so what exactly is the issue ?." . Hi Eric,yes,the mandolin was fine,but the Hiscox demo. of a bunch of guys standing on one was supposedly to demo. how 'strong' the cases are. Dropped like this one was,it wasn't very strong, & the owner was more than PO'd by it. Even when dropped,chunks of a case aren't supposed to break off !.

Mike Marshall doesn't house his Loar in a Travelite case for no good reason,& i personally know one guy who houses his Gilchrist in one. Used carefully,as ALL cases should be,a Travelite is possibly the most durable case out there. I wouldn't put one under extreme pressure,neither would i do that with any case you care to name,but externally,there's nothing to scratch / chip or break off. Coupled with the fact that they're roomy & well padded internally,if i owned the most expensive mandolin on the planet,it would go in a Travelite case - unfortunately for us in the UK,we can't get them unless we import them = expensive,
Ivan

[sblock]

From EricC - "...so what exactly is the issue ?." . Hi Eric,yes,the mandolin was fine,but the Hiscox demo. of a bunch of guys standing on one was supposedly to demo. how 'strong' the cases are. Dropped like this one was,it wasn't very strong, & the owner was more than PO'd by it. Even when dropped,chunks of a case aren't supposed to break off !.

Mike Marshall doesn't house his Loar in a Travelite case for no good reason,& i personally know one guy who houses his Gilchrist in one. Used carefully,as ALL cases should be,a Travelite is possibly the most durable case out there. I wouldn't put one under extreme pressure,neither would i do that with any case you care to name,but externally,there's nothing to scratch / chip or break off. Coupled with the fact that they're roomy & well padded internally,if i owned the most expensive mandolin on the planet,it would go in a Travelite case - unfortunately for us in the UK,we can't get them unless we import them = expensive,
Ivan

Yes, no doubt about it, the Travelite case does have a number of genuine virtues, but I think you are overstating the situation rather badly when you boldly claim that it is "possibly the most durable case out there." Not so! Granted, a Travelite does better than many other cases in a typical "drop test" (transient impact test) with the instrument inside. It is also light and convenient. Furthermore, it is inexpensive and available in many countries. However, it also leaves some things to be desired:

1) A Travelite case is not especially abrasion resistant. It's covered in a canvas-type cloth, and that cloth is fairly easily torn or ripped. The full-length zipper is also an Achilles heel. It's exposed, fragile and fairly easily broken. In fact, zipper breakage (especially after impact or abrasion) seems to be a common issue with Travelite cases, and the single greatest failure mode. Of course, these cases are cheap to replace, and so these failures can be remedied by simply buying a whole new case. Still...you wrote that "there's nothing to scratch/chip or break off" on a Travelite. Not so. You can break off the zipper (been there, done that!) and you can scratch or tear the fabric. There is little question in my mind that the outer part of a Travelite case is substantially less -- not more! -- durable than a hardshell fiberglass or carbon-fiber composite case, like a Calton, Pegasus, Price, or Hoffee.

2) As I wrote, a Travelite case is exceptionally good against many types of transient impacts (like the "drop test"), but then again, it tends to fail against many kinds of steady, crushing forces, particularly those applied horizontally. These are precisely the kinds of steady loads that can be encountered whenever the instrument case is packed together against a bunch of other items, like suitcases and other baggage inside luggage holds on airplanes, buses, or in trunks. Or, when something gets stacked on top of the case. For these sorts of crushing loads, you are far, far better off with a hardshell fiberglass or carbon-fiber composite case, like a Calton, Pegasus, Price, or Hoffee.

No case is perfect. Certainly not Travelite, and not the others, either. If you happen to know for a fact that your mandolin will never get placed in a luggage hold under any circumstances, and never have anything stacked on top of it, then a Travelite case can serve fairly well. Of course, you may have to keep replacing it, because if it suffers a significant impact, the hard foam breaks or crushes as it protects the instrument. It therefore functions as a sacrificial case, unlike many other types of case design.

I'm pretty sure that's the situation that obtains for Mike Marshall's Loar. However, if you do ever risk having to put your mandolin inside a luggage hold, or having give it up to some baggage handlers (even over your protests!), then you should know that the Travelite case does have some serious drawbacks.

There are plenty of valid reasons why people opt for hardshell fiberglass or carbon-fiber composite cases, and one should not ignore or dismiss those reasons. While it is unquestionably true that a small minority of folks with truly expensive mandolins do trust their instruments to a Travelite case, I think it is also fair to point out that the vast majority of such instruments are instead housed in high end, hardshell cases, like Calton, Hoffee, Pegasus, Price, and so on. These cases tend to cost a whole lot of money, but a market for them exists, nevertheless. That market would collapse if the Travelite were truly a 'better case' for most professional travel. Except that it's not.

One last thing: These other cases offer better protection than a Travelite in a sudden rainstorm. They have much better weatherproofing.

[almeriastrings]

+1

Pretty much sums it up.

The problem is... what kind of nasty accident is going to happen? Drop it down a flight of stone steps? Might be best off in a Travelite... or... is a heavy, hard object like a PA enclosure going to fall on your instrument from a great height? Better off in a Calton/Peg/Hoffee/Price (etc.).....

I have nothing against lightweight foam cases (I will by carrying my '45 D-18 in a Gator foam case later today when I run an event at a restaurant that is on the upper floors of a commercial centre). These cases are great for that kind of situation. Easy to carry and excellent against moderate bumps or drops. I also have a Calton guitar case for it... and in other situations, It would travel in that...heavy, tough, weather sealed....but not needed for a local gig and especially if I have to haul it up three flights of stairs...

[Ivan Kelsall]

From sblock - "...It's covered in a canvas-type cloth..". The outer material is actually 'Ballistic grade Nylon'' = as tough as hell !.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_nylon)

As for 'crushing forces' - as i mentioned, i wouldn't subject a Travelite or any other case to extreme pressure. Apart from the ''Mark Leaf'' cases,i don't think that any instrument cases are really designed for 'extreme' circumstances.
Part of my job in the Aerospace industry as a design / manufacturing engineer, was to test FG & CF components. I've seen too many failures to be complacent about any ''composite'' components. As with all materials,they're ok under 'some' circumstances,


As i've mentioned many times before - on a fibreglass or carbon fiber case,the outer shiny surface is the actual resin that holds the FG or CF together. Scratch that deeply enough,& you weaken the case in that area - which is ok as long as you don't apply any pressure there. As for the zipper - the only problem that i had with my now 12 year old Travelite case,was that the backing fabric behind it,frayed,& the edges got stuck in the zipper. I removed the fabric & it's been fine ever since. You can also bust zippers on your pants - but have you ever NOT bought a pair because they have a zipper which might break ?. Latches on hard cases can also become broken for 'whatever' reason. I've pointed several folk on here to ''Brettuns Village Leather Craft'' spares so that they can buy a replacement latch.

ALL cases are meant to be used in a sensible manner,in which case (no pun intended),a Travelite case is as good as any. To address Almeria's point - dropping the case. Put very simply - if you drop the case,it hits the deck with the combined impact force (inertia) of the case + mandolin. Lighten one of them & you lessen the total impact force.
Ivan

[dorenac]

Macabre, if you are looking for the Roo Strap there are two places I'm pretty sure have them, NFI. Carmel Music and from Tony Williamson at Mandolin Central.

[Eric C.]

From EricC - "...so what exactly is the issue ?." . Hi Eric,yes,the mandolin was fine,but the Hiscox demo. of a bunch of guys standing on one was supposedly to demo. how 'strong' the cases are. Dropped like this one was,it wasn't very strong, & the owner was more than PO'd by it. Even when dropped,chunks of a case aren't supposed to break off !.

Mike Marshall doesn't house his Loar in a Travelite case for no good reason,& i personally know one guy who houses his Gilchrist in one. Used carefully,as ALL cases should be,a Travelite is possibly the most durable case out there. I wouldn't put one under extreme pressure,neither would i do that with any case you care to name,but externally,there's nothing to scratch / chip or break off. Coupled with the fact that they're roomy & well padded internally,if i owned the most expensive mandolin on the planet,it would go in a Travelite case - unfortunately for us in the UK,we can't get them unless we import them = expensive,
Ivan

I would wager that if a Travelite took a fall (or throw) from the distance of a commercial plane cargo hold, you'd have to replace it as well. Once that precious foam takes severe impact damage it's protective properties are gone. Of course, one doesn't usually expect these things to happen, and as long as the mandolin is fine the case did it's job.
I remember when that original photo was posted and I remember thinking "If I ever own a mandolin that has high value and I'm expecting to fly, I'm going to buy that case!"

[AlanN]

How's this?

A case for every situation and for every situation a case.

[Eric C.]

How's this?

A case for every situation and for every situation a case.

I'd put the case in a case, just in case.

[sblock]

...Put very simply - if you drop the case,it hits the deck with the combined impact force (inertia) of the case + mandolin. Lighten one of them & you lessen the total impact force. Ivan

Ivan, I certainly appreciate that you are a die-hard fan of Travelite cases. You repeatedly cite all the advantages (light weight, good impact protection, low cost, convenience), which I and many others on the MC are very happy to concede. At the risk of repeating myself, these are great cases, for what they do, and they definitely have a place in my mandolin world! But you seem to minimize or ignore all the more obvious disadvantages, e.g., zipper failures (and I speak from experience about these), fabric tears (yes, these do happen!), little in the way of weatherproofing (zippers leak water), and -- most important of all -- comparatively poor protection against crushing loads. As I wrote, no case is perfect. It's just that the imperfections of the Travelite don't happen to be the same as the imperfections of hardshell cases. As for which of the many possible imperfections you wish to avoid the most with your choice of case -- well, that's down to a matter of personal opinion. Our opinions happen to differ in this point, possibly because our priorities also happen to differ. I suspect that I worry much more than you do about possible crushing injuries, for example, due to heavy things falling on my case, or things being pressed against it inside a luggage hold. I suspect that I also probably travel with my mandolin a bit more than you do (you'd mentioned an aversion to air travel with your instrument in a previous post).

But I do have to take issue with your basic physics (I write now as a card-carrying physicist, not as a mandolin player). It may seem rather counter-intuitive to you, but the "impact force" experienced by a mandolin inside a dropped case is not (repeat, NOT) related to the combined weight of the mandolin and its case. That's incorrect! It is also not true to write that if you "Lighten one of them" ... "you lessen the total impact force." That's equally incorrect. Please let me explain.

Galileo showed in his famous Leaning Tower of Pisa experiment (of ~1590) that whether you drop a heavy object or a light object from the same height, these fall to the ground -- and accelerate under gravity -- at exactly the same rate (neglecting air resistance). In a vacuum, where there is no air, a feather and a hammer will fall identically. Astronaut David Scott demonstrated this on the lunar surface back in 1971, in fact.

When you drop a mandolin inside its case, the combined object (case + instrument) will hit the ground at exactly the same velocity, regardless of the combined weight. A heavy case and a light case are therefore traveling at the same vertical speed at impact -- call it "V." Just a short instant after that impact (typically, 10's to 100's of milliseconds), the mandolin will now be traveling with ZERO vertical speed, as it comes to a complete rest on the ground -- hopefully, still inside the case! Now, the impact (measured, for example, in g's) experienced by the mandolin inside its case will depend on the distance over which it decelerates from V down to 0, and on the (short) time that this event takes. These quantities are usually called the "deformation distance" and the "impulse time."

The deformation distance and impulse time are most closely related to the thickness of the padding in the case and to the padding stiffness (which is usually nonlinear). With a high stiffness, or a thin padding -- or both -- the result will tend to be many g's of deceleration! Since Newton's 2nd Law tells us that Force = (mass x acceleration), the impact force will be quite high in this case. Note, importantly, that after contact with the ground, the outermost part of an otherwise fairly rigid case comes to a halt well before the mandolin suspended inside, so the correct mass to use in this equation is the mass of the mandolin -- not the mass of the case. You can easily see this in slow-motion videos of things that are dropped. With thicker case padding, and with lower stiffness, the overall impact force on the mandolin is lessened. Again, this does not depend on the weight of the case!

The problem for the mandolin comes whenever the impact force is sufficiently high to compress the padding all the way. At this point, the deformation distance is becomes limited by the thickness of the already-compressed padding. And the stiffness of this compressed padding suddenly becomes quite high, shortening the impulse time. If things get to this stage, the g's tend to go through the roof, and the impact force gets correspondingly high, so damage can, and usually will, occur. So there is a tradeoff in case design about whether to make the padding thicker (leading to a larger case) or the foam harder/softer in order to protect against a given impact.

The bottom line is that the combined weight of the mandolin and case mean almost nothing when it comes to drop protection! And neither, by the way, does the hardness of the outer shell, to a very good approximation (assuming the case has one). What really matters is the type, thickness, and the stiffness properties of the padding inside, and exactly how the mandolin is supported by this padding (which determines where any deceleration forces are applied to the instrument).

So, contrary to your intuition, a hardshell case that weighs more can indeed offer better, just as good -- or even worse -- protection that a lightweight hard foam case, like a Travelite. But whether it happens to be better, worse, or the same is related things other than the weight of the case, or to the hardness of the shell. What matters most for impact is the suspension and the padding.

The hard shell on a case does something else altogether: it can support external weight, and thereby provide better crush protection, instead. That is, it support and protects against steady loads, not against impacts. (Its effect on impact resistance is much more subtle.) And, as I have noted before, the hard foam on a Travelite suppresses most serious impacts by IRREVERSIBLY deforming, just like the hard foam in a bike helmet. Once such an impact is experienced, the hard foam gets permanently compressed, and you need to buy a new case, or a new bike helmet. It is sacrificial, as I wrote. The instrument is thereby saved, but not the case. A hardshell case, on the other hand, is generally designed to withstand multiple serious impacts, and it uses softer (not hard) foam for its padding, which can rebound reversibly. You should therefore not have to replace it as often. Which is a good thing, because it costs so much more!

[sideman]

I concur...

[sblock]

I'd put the case in a case, just in case.

Funny you should mention that. When I received the shipment of my Hoffee case (which was empty), it came packaged inside a carton that was, in turn, suspended inside a larger carton, like a Russian matryoshka nesting doll! Evidently, Hoffee takes protection very seriously. Case closed!

[LeonEvans]

Here are few shots of the three cases I have. A Price fiberglass, Hoffee Carbon Fiber and Austin Calton Fiberglas. Surprisingly, the Calton is not that much smaller than the others, just more shaped on the top. The Price is heaviest followed by the Calton and then the Hoffee. The Price has the most storage space. The Price is about an inch longer and a 1/2 inch deeper. All are nice cases and I've traveled on airlines with the Price and Calton which went in the overhead.

Leon

[AndrewF5]

Nice cases. What kind of humidifier do you have in that Hoffee?

[Cheryl Watson]

Would someone share the dimensions (length, width at widest point and depth) of their Austin made Calton mandolin case? Thank you!