Tailpiece angle, is this safe? Or does it need to be bent?

[Jesse Kinman]

Hi all, I’m replacing the tailpiece on my older Kentucky KM630s and I am putting on one of the cheap Ashton Bailey lookalike cast tailpieces, I’m concerned about the angle of the tailpiece... it looks like it could be sitting too high above the top, I a wondering if y’all think it is safe to go ahead and install, or if it will put too much pressure on the screws and pull them out. Thanks in advance, Jesse

[jim simpson]

Have you put a test string on to see how the string is lined up from the tailpiece to the bridge? If it does need bent, I wonder how forgiving the material is.

[Mandoplumb]

If that is a cast tailpiece it ain't gonna bend.

[Nevin]

If the angle isn't good, you could use washers on the lower the angle.

[pops1]

you could in place of washers use a wood dowel cut to give you the angle you want, drill a hole in the center and there you go.

[Jesse Kinman]

Here a picture with one each of the high and low string in position.

[Walt]

I don't think it would pull the screws out (I'm not a luthier, though, so take that with a grain of salt).
Changing the tailpiece angle will change your string break angle, though. That will change the amount of downward pressure on your bridge, which likely will affect the tone/volume. In this case because the break angle is less, you will have less downward pressure on your bridge. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you might find that there's less volume.

This web article is worth reading:
http://siminoff.net/string-break-angle-loads/

[Bertram Henze]

In this case because the break angle is less, you will have less downward pressure on your bridge. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you might find that there's less volume.

That's what I was thinking. Break angle is a valuable asset not to be given up so easily. Pops1's wood dowel suggestion above sounds good to me.

[Jonathan Ward]

This might be helpful. It's from Randy Allen's site, specifically on installing replacement mando tailpieces. His tailpieces often need to be bent to the appropriate angle. I have installed several, most of which required bending for the break angle. You can bend castings under the right circumstances (like in a machine vise).

http://www.allenguitar.com/IMAGES/vi...rogressive.mp4

(Evidently not all browsers will play this video without downloading it first.)

[sblock]

You should be able to make a minor bend in it without breaking the tailpiece.

[Jesse Kinman]

Based on my situation, and not wanting to have to buy another one, I have decided to not try to bend it, but use a wooden dowel/wedge to change the angle. This isn’t my main mandolin so I’m not concerned with the way it looks as much as if it works. I’ll post pictures of the finished product. Thanks for the insight, I appreciate it!

[Nevin]

Some metals are more forgiving than others. I would be cautious about trying to bend a cast piece. Maybe check with the manufacturer?

[Ivan Kelsall]

'Cast' anythings usually have a very granular grain structure = you can't bend it. It ''might'' be possible to bend it by heating it up along the bend line,but you'd very likely destroy it in the process. 'Forged' items on the other hand,can be bent,as the grain flows around the bend. But even if this t/piece was forged,you'd need quite a bit of force to bent it,& if the metal was too hard,it could still fracture.

The 'break angle' seems extreme to my eyes. My own Lebeda has a cast t/piece which has a higher break angle (higher off the top) than the Weber cast t/piece. Indeed, the Weber's front edge is barely 3/16 ''off the deck'' !. The front edge of the Lebeda is 8mm high off the mandolin top.

As most mandolins are different,one from another,i don't suppose that there's 'one break angle' to suit all mandolins. I've often wondered if a 'mandolin version' of a Stelling banjo tailpiece would be a feasible idea. The Stelling tailpieces can be adjusted :- up / down / backward /forward & side to side. However,with the very much higher string tension on mandolin strings,the t/piece end would need to be darned strong to accomplish the same adjustments,
Ivan

[Willie Poole]

I like Ivan`s idea of an adjustable tail piece, some one should work on that, get a patent etc...Get rich....I would buy one...

Willie

[Bertram Henze]

get a patent etc...Get rich....

...and unhappy. Of these three things
Patent,
Money,
Happiness,

only 2 can coexist in the same life.

I guess an adjustable tailpiece is just a life hack involving a screwdriver and a toothbrush, not rocket science.

[pops1]

I think a tailpiece that would automatically adjust to the angle would be an easy build, one that you can apply more or less pressure like a banjo tailpiece would be much harder and unnecessary for the mandolin. Just my opinion, I have lots of them and give them away for free.

[jim simpson]

The James tailpiece is designed to allow for adjustment, it's a smart design.

[Walt]

This design looks like it could work. It's pictured here on an archtop guitar. Narrow mandolin ribs, of course, provide less real estate to make adjustments.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Jim Simpson - " The James tailpiece is designed to allow for adjustment, it's a smart design." True - however !. I suspect that if you bent it too far down towards the mandolin top,the string tension would be working against it,& with it being 'bendable' to an extent,maybe the string tension would eventually cause it to bend upwards ?.

I could see a Stelling banjo ''style'' tailpiece working for 'up & down' pressure.if we'd allow a metal plate to be fixed to the mandolin t/piece end. The Stelling t/pieces are not fixed to the banjo,they 'float' on 2 screws which locate in small holes drilled in the banjo stretcher band.
However - a hinged t/piece could be designed,which held the actual t/piece to an 'attachment plate' & allowed for adjustment via an Allen screw as per the Stelling banjo t/piece. It could be done,but it would be a more complex t/piece than say a James t/piece,which,in the way it works,isn't too far away from what i have in mind,but would it infringe any Stelling t/piece patent etc. ?. I also wonder if the cost of such a t/piece would be worth any actual 'sonic gains' ??,
Ivan

[Walt]

Is the James tailpiece adjustable in a way that affects the break angle? I haven’t owned one (although I’d like to try one). In the pictures I’ve looked at, it looks like the cover is adjustable. Is there another mechanism that changes the angle of the tailpiece itself (not the cover)?

[sblock]

Ivan,

As you probably know from personal experience, mandolins and banjos are rather different beasts!

As the proud owner of two Stelling banjos (an early Bellflower and a later Staghorn), I am quite familiar with banjo tailpieces: they usually have adjustable downbearing pressure, because the bridge on the flexible banjo head needs to be pretensioned to function properly, or else the sound gets muddy and notes will distort as they get played.

Mandolin bridges are mated to a wooden top, of course, and do not require anywhere near this level of pretensioning. In fact, a large downbearing force on the mandolin is considered undesirable, because it can eventually lead to top arch sinkage, loose braces, and other problems over time. The force associated with the string break angle (usually 12-18 degrees) itself is more than sufficient. Mandolin bridges are not designed to provide additional downbearing, and, ideally, they should line up with the strings between the bridge and tailpiece. And when properly situated in such a line, no hinge is necessary! Any tailpiece that tried to press the strings down further would subject the mandolin tailblock to additional torque, which it is not designed to support.

The bottom line is that a mandolin tailpiece works differently than a banjo tailpiece, and it would not be a good idea to produce a mandolin tailpiece that subjected strings to additional downbearing pressure. You could place a hinge on the tailpiece, but that is unnecessary (and a potential source of rattles!), because most mando tailpieces are fairly easily adjusted -- once -- by a tiny amount of bending.

For what it's worth, the tiny amount of bending needed to get an Allen or Monteleone-style cast tailpiece to line up properly is NOT likely to break the casting, if it's done carefully and properly. I speak from experience, because I have done it. And so have others. The needed change in angle is typically only a degree or two (or, you can just shim it, as others have suggested). The trick is not to overbend it, and to support the tailpiece in a large vise and then bend the joint between the vertical endplate and horizontal attachment area ever-so-SLIGHTLY, using leather cauls to distribute the stress, and using some kind of a press (like an Arbor press or drill press), with carefully delimited movement. Don't just grab it with some vise grips and twist away, or you may overdo it!

[jim simpson]

Is the James tailpiece adjustable in a way that affects the break angle? I haven’t owned one (although I’d like to try one). In the pictures I’ve looked at, it looks like the cover is adjustable. Is there another mechanism that changes the angle of the tailpiece itself (not the cover)?

The main thing in adjusting the James tailpiece is to have it align in order to be able to snap the hinged cover to a closed position. That puts it in a pretty neutral angle as far as not adding or subtracting pressure to the bridge. I couldn't find an illustration of the bending detail but instructions are included with the tailpiece.

[pops1]

I was thinking of something on a hinge so it would automatically align with the string angle.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Sblock - Purely out of curiosity what's the serial # of your Bellflower ?. Mine has the 'bound' headstock & is serial # 3220.

Re.banjo / mandolin tailpieces,i fully understand what you say - but !. Maybe IF a mandolin tailpiece could be adjusted up/down to increase/decrease back pressure behind the bridge,it 'might' have some benefit ?. Unfortunately,as such tailpieces don't exist,we can only make educated guesses - the 'reality' might be somewhat different. I've often thought that the pretty sharp angle of the Weber tailpiece creates more back pressure behind the bridge, & gives it it's somewhat 'bright' tone.

Here's the James tailpiece PDF :-
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

I was thinking of something on a hinge so it would automatically align with the string angle.

...or something on two strings like a violin tailpiece (so that changing one string's tension can affect all others, making tuning more fun)