Should 3rd Position Be Painful?

[Sherry Cadenhead]

My teacher had started me on learning to play in 3rd position when I got sidetracked by double stops (which I'm still working on). My lessons start back next week, so I figure I should be playing some 3rd position exercises. I find my left hand is really painful after playing for only a few minutes. I had mentioned that to my teacher who pointed out I wasn't moving my thumb along with the rest of my hand. I've corrected that problem but still have the pain. I believe my form is good. Any suggestions?

[Bill McCall]

First, be careful. Hand injuries can be quite slow to heal, as you use your hand constantly, and even movements that wouldn't seem to further an injury can in fact aggravate it. Sharp pains are to be avoided, a dull ache can be tolerable.

As far as form and pain go, you might be or have been squeezing the neck a bit too hard and using your thumb for leverage. I've done that using exercises from a fiddle book to work on left hand stretching and finger independence (Cassis Harvey). The pain would reflect an existing injury that is healing, again, dull ache okay, sharp pain bad. Or it could be an overuse issue. Hard to say.

You haven't indicated where the pain site is, so I've just answered in terms of my own hand pain and the lessons I've learned with analgesics and descriptive pain.

Again, first be careful.

[Sherry Cadenhead]

Thanks, Bill. I'll try to isolate the pain when I practice tomorrow.

[James Miller]

I was getting thumb base pain. Figured it was due to me not moving the thumb with the hand - instead was pressing on the neck for leverage.

[David Lewis]

Difficult yes. Painful no.

[Jim Garber]

My teacher had started me on learning to play in 3rd position when I got sidetracked by double stops (which I'm still working on). My lessons start back next week, so I figure I should be playing some 3rd position exercises. I find my left hand is really painful after playing for only a few minutes. I had mentioned that to my teacher who pointed out I wasn't moving my thumb along with the rest of my hand. I've corrected that problem but still have the pain. I believe my form is good. Any suggestions?

What exercises are you playing? Were these assigned from your teacher? If you are finding them painful I would stop and wait until next week when you have your lesson so your tea her can correct whatever playing problems you are experiencing. People here have some expertise in playing but we can't see what it is you may be doing to cause pain. Keep playing whatever does not cause you pain until your lesson.

[dadsaster]

Whenever I start getting any kind of hand pain I check two things:

1 - is my wrist straight?
2 - Is there a gap between the crotch of my first finger/thumb and the neck?

Does the action feel different in 3rd position (do you feel you need to squeeze harder)? This happened to me when I started messing around with chord voicings but it was because I was playing lots and lots of chords. Breaks are important.

[MontanaMatt]

One thing to analyze is your wrist angle. Try not to let there be any weird angular contortions, it should look very neutral and relaxed. Not arched and reaching, or flexed out (like a waiter carrying a tray). Most times my students have had pain it's due to angle of wrist not being neutral. It's not something to try to work through, be careful not to injure yourself.
Best of luck
Happy pickin

[ralph johansson]

Whenever I start getting any kind of hand pain I check two things:

1 - is my wrist straight?
2 - Is there a gap between the crotch of my first finger/thumb and the neck?

Does the action feel different in 3rd position (do you feel you need to squeeze harder)? This happened to me when I started messing around with chord voicings but it was because I was playing lots and lots of chords. Breaks are important.

It's a bit strange that you should even have to ask yourself these questions. My own approach to left hand technique is: the left hand is there to fret the notes but not in any way to support the neck. Hence I secure the instrument in place using the points and a small portion of my forearm (I don't use a strap). Then I simply bring the hand to neck and start playing. The thumb (over which I have very limited control) lands and rests on the side of the neck and I exert no force whatever to keep it there. My wrist will be straight most of the time, except when playing barre chords - then it will arch slightly inwards. And the chop G form would probably make it arch the other way.

[MontanaMatt]

It's a bit strange that you should even have to ask yourself these questions. My own approach to left hand technique is: the left hand is there to fret the notes but not in any way to support the neck. Hence I secure the instrument in place using the points and a small portion of my forearm (I don't use a strap). Then I simply bring the hand to neck and start playing. The thumb (over which I have very limited control) lands and rests on the side of the neck and I exert no force whatever to keep it there. My wrist will be straight most of the time, except when playing barre chords - then it will arch slightly inwards. And the chop G form would probably make it arch the other way.

Ralph-What barre chord shapes are you using?

[UsuallyPickin]

Make sure that you are not over gripping the neck when you move to 3rd position. Trying to hard can make a player choke the neck. If you have to grip that hard to get a clean tone from your instrument then you need to set up your instrument. R/

[Jim1hays]

I had a similar issue where I was pressing down on the side of the neck with my thumb causing cramping in the thumb and some pain. I agree with the other about wrist position and not trying to hold the neck with the left hand. I t is for playing not holding!!

[Pete Martin]

You may want to check out the ergonomic videos I did on "Holding the Instrument" and "The Left Hand". Watch yourself in a mirror from many angles and see if you are doing these.

http://www.petimarpress.com/mandolin...%20videos.html

Also have your instructor check to see if your instrument is playable in higher positions. Beginning mandolins often need some set up work or more to be playable higher on the fingerboard.

[Sherry Cadenhead]

Thanks for all the responses. I've read them and watched Pete's videos. Tonight I took a video of my 3rd position practice. I still think my form is pretty good, but my hand looks rather tense. No pain tonight, but some discomfort, I suppose. Have had no pain at all in my wrist, thumb or fingers.

[Louise NM]

Any chance your hand was hurting for another reason, and moving to third just aggravated it?

[Sherry Cadenhead]

Any chance your hand was hurting for another reason, and moving to third just aggravated it?

I don't believe so, Louise. I'll definitely explore the possibilities with my teacher next week. Was hoping to spend some time practicing 3rd position this week. I'm doing it, but carefully.

[ralph johansson]

Ralph-What barre chord shapes are you using?

The shape I was thinking of is 2-2-4-5 for an A major or 2-2-3-5 for an a minor chord. I hardly ever use that voicing; I just checked for the purpose of this discussion. I could probably avoid arching by adjusting the angle between hand and neck but the main thing for me is to avoid effort and over-thinking. In one of the first threads I read on this forum someone stressed the importance of *forcing* the thumb towards the mddle of the back of the neck, in analogy with classic guitar (forgetting that a guitar neck is much wider). Wonder why people post such nonsense?


The one barre shape I'm most likely to use is c-g-d (5-5-5-x) as a subtitute for an am7 chord, e.g., as a preparation for D7 (5-4-5-x). No problem, no arching.

[Sherry Cadenhead]

I was able to isolate my pain this afternoon. It's in the area between the base of my thumb and the base of my index finger, not quite to the back of the hand. I also noticed it when playing C major scales in first position. Maybe the pain is due to stretching that part of my hand, which isn't normally done.

[dadsaster]

How is the action on your instrument? I would consider lowering it if you can to de-stress your hand for a couple of weeks.

[Sherry Cadenhead]

How is the action on your instrument? I would consider lowering it if you can to de-stress your hand for a couple of weeks.

Thanks for this. My action was recently checked and lowered, so I think I'm good there. I'll discuss with my teacher next week.

[David Lewis]

I’d maybe look at where the neck rests on your hand as in are you supporting it in the webbing between thumb and index finger?