Grading Used Instruments

[po56okie]

Yes, Hello, I've looked over many websites and am curious as to how descriptions of used instruments are worded. ,,such as, good sound , nice, excellent, Great, Superb, etc, I wonder on a scale of 1 to 10 where these descriptions would fall. Also, when they say excellent do they mean "excellent tone" or "excellent playability" ... I once bought a mandolin off the web and was described as excellent.....it turned out to be a musical dud.

[allenhopkins]

Unanswerable questions, unfortunately. No accepted "1 to 10" set to objective criteria exist, that would apply to dealer, let alone private, sales of used instruments.

Descriptions are worded with the intent to sell an instrument. Adjectives that you list are almost totally subjective; my "excellent" instrument might be your "passable," or even "unacceptable."

The only advice I can come up with, is to deal with sellers, like those who sponsor the Cafe, who have established good reputations for describing their used items accurately, and who don't sell damaged goods, or over-hyped mandolins with problems. If they have an instrument with wear, damage from usage, etc., they'll specify it. If you buy from the Cafe classifieds, you know that the Cafe staff are watching these transaction, and take any complaints seriously.

You can't be protected from "musical duds," however. If the mandolin was undamaged, the fact that the seller said it was "excellent," and you didn't like the sound of it, is a case of caveat emptor, "let the buyer beware." Best course of action is to buy where the seller will let you have a trial approval period, and you can return it if not satisfied, only paying the shipping costs. Unfortunately, many private sellers don't offer this feature, though quite a few dealers will.

There are a fairly standard set of terms: "mint," "excellent," "very good," "good," "fair" etc. that many sellers use. But -- there are no objective scores to determine into which category an instrument falls.

[Jim Garber]

Agree with Allen’s assessments above. Check out individual dealers description terms like this one from Elderly.

[Phil Goodson]

As above, all descriptions that you get from sellers will be very subjective.

I would NEVER consider buying an instrument sight unseen without at least talking to a human by telephone and asking all my specific questions. Not only the answers, but also the manner in which the answer is given would help me to decide whether to take the risk of buying.
And ALWAYS with the right of returning the instrument unharmed if found unacceptable. Just my opinion.

[Seter]

I don't pay as much attention to the seller's grading of the instrument and focus on the pictures instead, which of course aren't always adequate either. You can tell when a non-player is posting pictures of an instrument, like when they cut off the headstock and things like that.

[James Miller]

Blurry photos hide stuff, like cracks. if someone really wants to sell their instrument they will photo good photos and not cheap cellphone shots on motion.

One other peeve of mine is that a lot of sellers do not have any samples or videos of their instrument, and instead say it sounds great. I've got a car that sounds great too, but no one will buy a car unless they hear it run.
If it sounds good post a video of it. YouTube doesn't charge for that, and it doesn't have to be really long. Flaunt that sound if you want to sell it. I seen a few pretty mandolins that sound meh. Looks is not everything. :\

[catndahats]

First, Merry Christmas to all----Po56okie, this topic has been chewing at me lately too. This is my 3rd attempt to post on this thread since my first two thoughts were not positive I deleted them, and being new on this forum I really don't want to ruffle feathers.
Regarding a rating system, it is impossible as long as individuals are left to their own devices and motives.
My thoughts are regarding 3 groups of individuals and their rating of instruments:

1. There are honest individuals that are selling their personal instruments. They honestly describe the instrument, how long they have owned it and why they are selling it, and price it fairly below that of a retail brick and mortar store. They are interested in the instrument arriving safely and the buyer being happy. To me, this is best place to buy used---online, finding these folks can be a challenge now-a-days.

2. The brick and mortar stores that are willing to describe an instrument objectively, price it so they can stay in business and hope you will return and refer friends to them. They offer set-up and return policies, and easy safe payment options, hoping by fairly describing an instrument that the sale will stick and you as a buyer will be happy. If you already have a relationship with the seller, you can trust their appraisal when asking "is this a good one?". As a buyer you pay a little more, but it is the least risky.

3. Flippers. Nothing against an individual trying to make a buck.
Speaking from recent experience, the biggest risk factor lies in buying from group #3. The better flippers will be upfront and tell you they do this as a job, some won't. And I am not talking about the enthusiast that likes to seek out a new model or sound, or those that upgrade often either. Use due diligence when buying from these folks. They often buy lowball from group #1 today and re-list here and other sites at an inflated price tomorrow, misrepresenting condition since it is subjective. There is no real recourse or guarantee that you won't have a headache or pay too much from this group. You can probably read that group #3 is not my favorite.

So, again Merry Christmas to all. May you be blessed and prosperous in all that you put your hand to in the new year!

[Mark Wilson]

If it sounds good post a video of it. YouTube doesn't charge for that, and it doesn't have to be really long. Flaunt that sound if you want to sell it. I seen a few pretty mandolins that sound meh. Looks is not everything. :\

I've heard some sample sound clip videos of basic instruments that sound great and then some expensive instruments (that should sound better) that sounded meh. Most of that due to player. Not everyone can make an instrument sound as good as it can.

I will agree that claims of 'best one ever' from unknown sellars are kinda cliche and doesn't inform me like a decent sound clip
I am a sucker for 'plays like butter' tho

[James Miller]

3. Flippers. Nothing against an individual trying to make a buck.
Speaking from recent experience, the biggest risk factor lies in buying from group #3. The better flippers will be upfront and tell you they do this as a job, some won't. And I am not talking about the enthusiast that likes to seek out a new model or sound, or those that upgrade often either. Use due diligence when buying from these folks. They often buy lowball from group #1 today and re-list here and other sites at an inflated price tomorrow, misrepresenting condition since it is subjective. There is no real recourse or guarantee that you won't have a headache or pay too much from this group. You can probably read that group #3 is not my favorite.

Ahh, that explains it then. Seen a couple of Flatirons on Reverb that are of a good price range. I asked each one for a YouTube video, nothing elaborate, to see how well the mandolin plays. Two out of Three replies. One has nothing. Other says he can't play very well but he'll try to find something or send me a sound file.

Well, the video would also show the mandolin being played, the one being sold ya know. Sound clip doesn't.

Told them both not to go to any effort, I was merely browsing. Ya figure if they had a used Flatiron they would know how to play it. However it seems neither seller knows how to play or play well. Which your post makes things a bit more clear. Thanks.

When I bought my first didgeridoo I was looking for a certain tone and key. Wasn't shooting for the stars. Ben of Didgeridoo Breath sent me a 35 second video taken by smartphone (in a mirror) of him playing it. and set it aside. Bought it a few hours later.
Before purchasing I want to see and hear it played. When you go to a store they let you play them, and will play for if asked. Seems only a fair thing to ask.

[catndahats]

James Miller, so true. That's my rub with how flippers describe/grade instruments---descriptions that vary widely depending on the website. Some are innocent, uninformed folks. Some are knowledgeable, and some are just are flipping for profit at the buyers expense--with no value added. And honestly, I wonder if they even play mandolin. They sell everything from snake oil to "collectibles" on the net. For example, I've been following a particular mandolin that I would like to purchase for the last couple of months and the descriptions/grading vary widely depending on who owns it, and which website it is listed on. The instrument has not changed, but how it is graded sure has.

Just a funny/sad kinda realistic fiction version of the mandolin that changed owners 3 times in two months told from my perspective; some details are changed to give anonymity:
Owner #1 was the original owner when I first saw the instrument. An aging enthusiast who because of ailing health was selling his instrument. He priced it fairly here on the cafe, described its' history, fret wear, dings and where they came from, and graded it as in "good condition" for its' age. I wasn't ready to buy yet, and it sold fairly quickly.
Buyer #2, a working musician got in a bind and had to sell a few weeks later. He graded/rated the instrument as "near mint" failing to mention the dings, fret wear, and such. He priced it at what he paid for it a month earlier---that's fair I thought. I hesitated for good enough reasons this time, and won't go into details but was leery of sending nearly $2k with the knowledge I had. Again it sold fairly quickly.
Buyer #3 is a flipper in my humble opinion. He bought the mandolin (yes, it is the same one--serial numbers match) on Monday, on Friday listed it for sale again all over the internet. Now the price has increased almost $600. His description varies from "near mint" to "excellent". He claims to have put new strings on it, but fails to mention the 3" scratch (easily visible from earlier listings) on the back of the neck, downplays the need to refret, and various other aspects that I feel are important to determining value. Looking at his other listings I notice a pattern. All are listed are "mint" or "very good" and yet they all have obvious defects/poor quality repairs and high prices....ie: mint condition but a "factory 2nd/blemish" that looks like the neck was broken and reglued sloppily and asking an almost new price...or "excellent condition for age" but has 3 screw holes that go all the way through the headstock and again priced as a mint/rarely used instrument....

So, buyers use due diligence. In-person is still the best way to purchase instruments. You can touch and see it, and most importantly you can hear the tone with your own ears. The electronic world is awesome in that it makes available to virtually everyone everywhere things that were not available just a few years ago. On the other hand experience has taught me that group #3 is a risky place, anonymous and far away, and once your money leaves your wallet, there's no promises.

[pheffernan]

Told them both not to go to any effort, I was merely browsing.

To be fair, I'm sure there's a thread around here in which different types of buyers get categorized. One group would be the tirekickers, known to ask for additional photographs, audio samples, and video clips of an instrument that they have no true intention of purchasing. After having their time wasted one too many times, some sellers stop indulging the tirekickers.

[pops1]

I would love to post a video of a mandolin I wanted to sell, it would sound like crap because I don't have a decent way to record it. Call me and I will play it to you over the phone, not sure it will sound any better. Some people don't post a utube video because they don't have the equipment to make something that sounds decent enough that they would want other folks all over the world to see. I have tried to record to my computer, sounds distorted. I am OK on the computer as far as surfing and looking at stuff, my son does everything else I may need to do as he understands it soooo much better than I do.

[allenhopkins]

In the end, no substitute for having the instrument in your hands. None.

Which is why I advocate buying from sellers who will allow a trial period -- or, even better, patronizing your local or regional dealers (and private sellers). A urination competition of "you said it was 'near-mint', and it has a ding!" "If it didn't have a ding, I would have said it was 'mint'!" "Well, thats not what 'near-mint' means!" "Who says so -- the Condition Police?" etc. etc. gets nobody anywhere.

I've purchased probably a dozen used instruments without having a chance to play them first. In each case, these were rarities that I couldn't have found locally, at Rochester's excellent instrument dealers. I've been fortunate in that I've never been seriously misled -- and my expectations were realistic, that I'd get an instrument in acceptable condition, which might require some adjustment or minor repair, but which was a decent value for the money.

So I picked up unusual instruments, like a Polk-A-Lay-Lee, a Guitaro, a Merrill aluminum bowl-back, a Gibson tenor lute, a Waldo bowl-back mandocello, a mandolinetto, et. al., on the private-sale used-instrument market. I was willing to live with the risk of disappointment, or of having to pay for significant restoration, in order to get instruments I couldn't get any other way.

Otherwise, I go to my dealer friends, who know me and won't BS me. They charge fair prices, and I want them to stay in business, so I don't try to bargain to the last nickel. Buying a mandolin should be a pleasurable experience, without having to worry if you're being "taken."

[Jill McAuley]

I've bought all my mandolins online, 14 all told since Nov 2008, and of those, two relatively inexpensive ones were misrepresented enough that one was returned immediately and the other (an eBay purchase) was sold locally so that buyers could see it/play it and make their own mind up as to whether the necessary repairs were worth taking a punt on it. A third purchase, that was not inexpensive, was described as being in "excellent" condition, but arrived in need of a refret. I opted to keep it and do the refret as it was an otherwise lovely instrument, and even with the additional cost of the refret still clocked in at a decent overall price.

[James Miller]

To be fair, I'm sure there's a thread around here in which different types of buyers get categorized. One group would be the tirekickers, known to ask for additional photographs, audio samples, and video clips of an instrument that they have no true intention of purchasing. After having their time wasted one too many times, some sellers stop indulging the tirekickers.

If I was not interested in purchasing I would not of asked for a video. If I cannot be there to hear it, could you please play it for me? Simple request.

One would figure in this day of age where nearly every smartphone has a camera, & quite obviously they do have a camera. Most every camera can record audio/video. YouTube is free to upload and delete.

If the seller refuses such, for whatever reason, then it is clear something is amiss. There is a reason they don't want to show a video, or that they are the flipper and have no idea how to play one. (snicker)

Would be better to buy from brick & mortar sites, rather than from Reverb-like places, in that the chances of getting a dud/broken/failing mandolin are a lot less risky.

[Folkmusician.com]

There are some legitimate reasons to not send audio or video files. I learned this early on..... First it is impossible to record an accurate representation. The instrument may sound good, bad or somewhere in-between, but it is guaranteed that it does not sound just like the recording. Next up... I have spent a good deal of effort trying to accurately record two separate instruments only to have the person not be able to tell the difference (when it was quite obvious in person). Additionally, most buyers listen on a phone or low quality speakers. I realize there are exceptions, and some people can pick out difference, and many are using top grade headphones and monitors, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

In the end, I am not so sure sellers are doing buyers a favor by posting videos.

[Phil Goodson]

...Simple request.
One would figure in this day of age where nearly every smartphone has a camera, & quite obviously they do have a camera.....

Well,.... there are still a few of us who do NOT have a 'smartphone'. Amazing, I know.
Some of us are not too confident in recording ourselves and sounding 'not so good'.
If you asked me for a video, I'm afraid you'd not get it. And perhaps I'd not find a buyer. But that's the way it is sometimes.
No reason to think badly of folks for the wrong reasons.

[pops1]

I have tried recording on my smart phone and my computer, if I wanted to sell a mandolin I would not use those recordings. I don't want to buy a better UBC mic just so I can record on my computer in case I want to sell a mandolin and someone would like a recording. I have many times asked for an instrument to be played over the phone and put the phone on speaker, and have done so for someone else. Not sure it sounds better or worse, but the personal part of conversing to get it done is important for a comfortable sale and I like to make the contact selling or buying any way.