F style with broken scroll -- couple of ?s

[chuxster]

I'm seriously online looking at an Eastman MD-515 (I think - haven't seen the label and it was listed as a MD-505). Looks to be in pretty good shape, except the scroll on the headstock is broken. I'm told the broken off piece is available and will come with the mando. I've asked for a pic of the piece pressed up to the headstock so I can see if it is fully there. I'm thinking if is, I can glue and clamp it back and be OK. Is that the preferred solution? Are there other better solutions? I include a pic - from backside is best view I have.

Assuming everything else is OK, and that the broken piece is available, what price would be fair? OHC is included.

Thanks in advance.

[sunburst]

If the piece fits well, it can be glued back on, but clamping is not easy and requires some sort of creativity because of the shape, curves, and lack of opposing surfaces. If it doesn't fit well because of loss of material, damage, or the presence of a "scroll strengthener", it is a repair that is even more complicated.
Dowels, pins, wires, nails (other than rusty horse shoe nails (ignore that, it is a reference to someone else's humor)) are to be avoided. A simple glue and clamp is the best repair, even if new material must be fit in place to accomplish the repair.
In short, it is not a complicated repair, but it is not an easy repair.

[chuxster]

If the piece fits well, it can be glued back on, but clamping is not easy and requires some sort of creativity because of the shape, curves, and lack of opposing surfaces. If it doesn't fit well because of loss of material, damage, or the presence of a "scroll strengthener", it is a repair that is even more complicated.
Dowels, pins, wires, nails (other than rusty horse shoe nails (ignore that, it is a reference to someone else's humor)) are to be avoided. A simple glue and clamp is the best repair, even if new material must be fit in place to accomplish the repair.
In short, it is not a complicated repair, but it is not an easy repair.

Thanks John. That's good, helpful info. I planned to fab up some supporting jig so that the clamp can work exactly perpendicular to the crack and apply pressure to the pieces evenly over as much material as possible. I'll use felt or some other buffer to protect the mando edge wood while it's clamped.
Are you saying that the use of a dowel would not be a good idea? Is that due to the complexity of fitting it exactly square, or some other reason?
What is a scroll strengthener?

Finally, in your experience, what kind of a value discount would I be fair in asking, considering a new instrument is in the $900-1000 range?
Thanks again.

[sunburst]

I really don't have any idea of effect on value of the repair. I suppose the better it is done the less effect.
This thread should answer your other questions.

[Jim Garber]

This is a damaged instrument. It might have been dropped. It will never be worth what a new one would. I would offer about 1/2 the price, assuming that everything else is in good shape.

[Mark Wilson]

It's a gamble so get a good discount. If you love the mandolin you'll not mind the defect. But if you sell it, you'll get hammered for it.
Ask yourself how much you would pay for it used with the repair.

[Paul Busman]

It might not be the perfect preferred method of repair, but why couldn't you glue it back with CA glue? It sets very quickly so clamping wouldn't be a problem.
What is the finish on the front of the headstock? Matte?Gloss?

[multidon]

Paul, it might be tempting to try CA for this, but I wouldn’t recommend it. CA has an unfortunate habit of going where you don’t want it to go, despite your best efforts to prevent that from happening. Don’t ask me how I know that.

I would probably use original Titebond fir a repair like that. I have found for small repairs you can just “clamp” it with finger pressure and it sets up enough to let go of it after ten minutes or so. Damp cloth takes care of the squeeze out and the repair would be practically invisible. Another thought is that this might be one of the very few applications we would have for bottled hide glue. That would have the disadvantage of not setting up quickly enough for self clamping, so you would need some kind of alignment jig. But it would be easily reversible if you were unhappy with it.

I would not assume the instrument had been dropped. If it is otherwise in excellent shape, probably not. A drop would have done something else visible I believe. Those headstock scrolls are delicate. They can come of just bumping a mic stand.

A scroll strengthener is a wood disc that has been inlaid into that area with the grain running in a different direction from the rest. I don’t mean to speak for John, but I’ll just bet he thinks using an inlaid disc, dowel, or anything else that cuts away original wood there would just serve to weaken it further. And he would be right.

On an instrument that is in excellent shape, and originally cost 1000, 700 would be a fair price. For this one, I would pay no more than 400 with the understanding that I was gambling that there is no other hidden damage. Caveat emptor.

[chuxster]

This is specific to John's reply up above.

I read the attached thread. Thanks so much. I learned a lot. I'm now thinking I'll do a jig of some kind and hide glue so that eventual re-fixes will be easier.
BTW - I also looked at your site and your instruments are beautiful!

[chuxster]

Paul, it might be tempting to try CA for this, but I wouldn’t recommend it. CA has an unfortunate habit of going where you don’t want it to go, despite your best efforts to prevent that from happening. Don’t ask me how I know that.

I would probably use original Titebond fir a repair like that. I have found for small repairs you can just “clamp” it with finger pressure and it sets up enough to let go of it after ten minutes or so. Damp cloth takes care of the squeeze out and the repair would be practically invisible. Another thought is that this might be one of the very few applications we would have for bottled hide glue. That would have the disadvantage of not setting up quickly enough for self clamping, so you would need some kind of alignment jig. But it would be easily reversible if you were unhappy with it.

I would not assume the instrument had been dropped. If it is otherwise in excellent shape, probably not. A drop would have done something else visible I believe. Those headstock scrolls are delicate. They can come of just bumping a mic stand.

A scroll strengthener is a wood disc that has been inlaid into that area with the grain running in a different direction from the rest. I don’t mean to speak for John, but I’ll just bet he thinks using an inlaid disc, dowel, or anything else that cuts away original wood there would just serve to weaken it further. And he would be right.

On an instrument that is in excellent shape, and originally cost 1000, 700 would be a fair price. For this one, I would pay no more than 400 with the understanding that I was gambling that there is no other hidden damage. Caveat emptor.

Thanks Don. Good info all around. This is a first mando for me after years of guitar. I'll use it to learn on, noodle on from the couch and play at jams. Probably won't ever sell it - pass it on to any of several musician grandkiddos when the time comes.

[Frank Ford]

Here's how I usually do it:

REINFORCING A BROKEN HEADSTOCK SCROLL

[chuxster]

It might not be the perfect preferred method of repair, but why couldn't you glue it back with CA glue? It sets very quickly so clamping wouldn't be a problem.
What is the finish on the front of the headstock? Matte?Gloss?

Attachment 163354 . Not sure if this will show, but it's the standard Eastman lower model black -- looks more satin to me than matte or gloss. I think I'll use hide glue based on John's input. Thanks.

[chuxster]

BTW - I'm still in negotiation on the purchase of the mando. I'm attaching the latest pictures I got this morning from seller showing the broken scroll held up to position. Looks to me like a clean break that will be repairable. I'll try to keep this thread going if it is of value to anyone else down the road. If you are interested in this thread, I recommend reading John Hamlett's post (#4 above) where he links a thread from 6 years ago. Good info on several ways to deal with the inherent issue the scroll presents and pros/cons of each. At this point, I've settled on trying hide glue so that reattaching it the next time it breaks will be easier.
Here are a couple of pics of the broken scroll held up to position, front and back. (I'm still learning how to attach, so hopefully this works.) . .

[amowry]

Yes, I only use hot hide glue for these. In addition to being reversible/repairable later, it has the pleasant virtue of pulling joints tighter as it dries and shrinks, and it's easy to clean up squeezeout with warm water. CA squeezeout would be a nightmare to remove, and Titebond tends to leave a thicker glue line and would have to be removed completely if it ever broke again.

If clamping is a challenge, you might be able to use strong tape, like paper binding tape. You'd stretch a piece across one side of the break, open the joint up to add glue, then stretch a piece across the other side to pull it tight. You can create a surprising amount of clamping force with tape. You'd want to test it first to make sure that it doesn't harm the finish, though.

When I designed my F5 headstocks I made the narrow part of the scroll wider than normal, but there's an illusion with the binding that makes it look more slender. I've never had anyone comment on it, but it makes it far less likely for a break to occur.

[chuxster]

Yes, I only use hot hide glue for these. In addition to being reversible/repairable later, it has the pleasant virtue of pulling joints tighter as it dries and shrinks, and it's easy to clean up squeezeout with warm water. CA squeezeout would be a nightmare to remove, and Titebond tends to leave a thicker glue line and would have to be removed completely if it ever broke again.

If clamping is a challenge, you might be able to use strong tape, like paper binding tape. You'd stretch a piece across one side of the break, open the joint up to add glue, then stretch a piece across the other side to pull it tight. You can create a surprising amount of clamping force with tape. You'd want to test it first to make sure that it doesn't harm the finish, though.

When I designed my F5 headstocks I made the narrow part of the scroll wider than normal, but there's an illusion with the binding that makes it look more slender. I've never had anyone comment on it, but it makes it far less likely for a break to occur.

Thanks Andrew. More good info which reinforces what I've learned and plan. I love your idea to make the weak narrow part wider -- it looks great.

[chuxster]

Yes, I only use hot hide glue for these. In addition to being reversible/repairable later, it has the pleasant virtue of pulling joints tighter as it dries and shrinks, and it's easy to clean up squeezeout with warm water. CA squeezeout would be a nightmare to remove, and Titebond tends to leave a thicker glue line and would have to be removed completely if it ever broke again.

If clamping is a challenge, you might be able to use strong tape, like paper binding tape. You'd stretch a piece across one side of the break, open the joint up to add glue, then stretch a piece across the other side to pull it tight. You can create a surprising amount of clamping force with tape. You'd want to test it first to make sure that it doesn't harm the finish, though.

When I designed my F5 headstocks I made the narrow part of the scroll wider than normal, but there's an illusion with the binding that makes it look more slender. I've never had anyone comment on it, but it makes it far less likely for a break to occur.

Searching for paper binding tape and most point to book binding or book repair tape. Is that what you are referring too?

Does anybody have a source for small quantities of hide glue? It's likely I'll mix up an ounce (w/2 ounces of water) and have leftover. Don't plan to build a whole instrument, just glue back the broken scroll. Seems wasteful to buy a pound, not to mention pretty expensive for one very small glue job. Thanks in advance.

[sunburst]

Does anybody have a source for small quantities of hide glue?

The supermarket.

[amowry]

Sorry, I was referring to the tape sold for gluing binding on instruments, like this: http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-s...s/binding-tape

However, I should say that I don't know from experience how this will work with the finish on your instrument. A safer option might be lacquer-safe masking tape, like this: http://www.lmii.com/products/finishi...e-masking-tape You can get this at many hardware stores.

[chuxster]

The supermarket.

There you go! Right there on aisle 12. Thanks again.

[chuxster]

Sorry, I was referring to the tape sold for gluing binding on instruments, like this: http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-s...s/binding-tape

However, I should say that I don't know from experience how this will work with the finish on your instrument. A safer option might be lacquer-safe masking tape, like this: http://www.lmii.com/products/finishi...e-masking-tape You can get this at many hardware stores.

Thanks again. I like that idea. Was also thinking I might get some gaffers tape, but this will probably be safer.

[rcc56]

It is likely that gaffer's tape will pull the finish off.

Me, I'd devise a clamping caul. But this is not a load-bearing repair, and blue masking tape [I stick it to my jeans twice to reduce the tack before I apply it] or cord or strong rubber bands will probably be sufficient.

[pelone]

CA glue---speed up the curing by zapping it. Or, elect to leave it off entirely and allow it to show it's inherent "distressed" aura.

[George R. Lane]

Hell, Bill played for years with a broken scroll and it didn't brother him.