Which type of practice do you do?

[JonZ]

I know that Beethoven never used a metronome, until someone invented a metronome.

A lot of people look back at the “fathers” of jazz and bluegrass and observe that they learned by ear. You can also observe that they used every means available at the time.

[Bertram Henze]

I guess these pros had a strong will to play music, which blazes its trail into reality with or without an educational system. Without that will no system would help.

[JonZ]

I know people who have had enough will to practice for years—with minimal progress. Some willful people bang their heads against a wall with great passion.

[Bill McCall]

My practice is structured. I warmup, do technical exercises for each hand, some theory (new chord work), play some old repetoire and some new. I jam 5 times a week and play along with videos and recordings. I took up mandolin at 63 so I’m hurrying to be able to play the music in my head with some proficiency.

I don’t have time to learn the changes and melodies to tunes by ear, so I read a chart and learn/play new tunes fairly quickly. This way I can focus on the playing, not the learning chore. The structure gives me the tools to handle new music and better musicality and improvisation of existing repetoire. I don’t know how you’d learn chord inversions and voice leading by just random noodling unless you spent a large amount of time.

Goals can be different.

Ymmv

[Mark Gunter]

The whole thing seems so formulaic and rigid and mechanical that it seems it would squeeze the life out of any spark of art that was present

A whole bunch of folk - including many pros - feel exactly the way that you do. For that reason, some are quick to tell you, "I don't practice." Of course, that's nonsense, they do practice, they just can't stand the thought of the classic idea of routine, structured practice. What they do is spend untold hours of their time making music and figuring out how to get better at it while they're playing.

[JonZ]

Which pros say they don’t practice?

[Bertram Henze]

To motivate me for practising, my mother told me that pros practise 18 hours every day. When I was a small child, she had also told me that, should I try to look through the keyhole into the room with the Christmas presents, an angel would blow my eyes out. Pros and angels don't bother me much any more.

[Mark Gunter]

Which pros say they don’t practice?

Nicholas Barron for one; Erin McKeown for another. Obviously, they have practiced - played - a great deal, and they define "practice" in very narrow terms. They eschew the idea of deliberate practice in a classic sense as you've laid out as item 2 in OP.

[Mark Gunter]

Jon, you shouldn't be surprised that some pros claim they don't practice. I think there are musicians in this forum who would claim they don't practice - especially not in the strict sense as you've indicated in OP. Pro musicians are just people, like amateur musicians are. Do you really think they all claim to "practice"? It's not a matter of what they do I'm referring to, it's what they claim not to do. Some outstanding musicians would rather be subjected to Chinese torture than to tackle a formal practice schedule like you've laid out.

[Eric Platt]

As I'm still a rookie on mandolin (but not music itself) probably shouldn't respond - but that's never stopped me before -
Most of the time I start out on mandolin playing a tune or two that either I'm very familiar with, or close to learning, just need to smooth it out. Then depending on what is coming up, will either work on a piece for the band, or another tune that I want to learn. Been known to spend an hour or two just working on one tune - trying to get it memorized, then minimize mistakes, then smooth it out. Like others, it helps if I can hear the tune in my head. That was the easy part early on - most of the tunes I was learning were tunes my old band played.

Will admit to relying too much on notation of any sort. Need to work on my ear. I can hear the tune, but transferring it to the instrument has always been my weak point. Thankfully, for some reason it's easier for me to do this on mandolin than on guitar.

Have a long way to go before even being bad on the instrument. Being in a band with some shows has helped push me forward. Fast.

[JonZ]

I read someone going on about how Herbie Hancock learned to play jazz by ear. So I read the biography that he had cited, which said Hancock was already a highly trained classical prodigy when he started learning jazz, and that he worked intensely with great jazz teachers to understand what he was “learning by ear”.

So that’s how Hancock learned to play jazz “by ear”.

[JonZ]

Jon, you shouldn't be surprised that some pros claim they don't practice. I think there are musicians in this forum who would claim they don't practice - especially not in the strict sense as you've indicated in OP. Pro musicians are just people, like amateur musicians are. Do you really think they all claim to "practice"? It's not a matter of what they do I'm referring to, it's what they claim not to do. Some outstanding musicians would rather be subjected to Chinese torture than to tackle a formal practice schedule like you've laid out.

I believe you.

[Mark Gunter]

I would like to hear more pro players asked about that. "What was your learning process?"

That kind of stuff is interesting to many of us because it encompasses many things we're interested in, like players we admire and enjoy, music itself, the desire to get better at what we do. I've heard numerous interviews that at least ask about the origins of the person's musical journey. When it comes to practicing, an even better question would be, "What things did you do to get better?"

In the Grass Talk Radio interview of Mike Marshall, he says that he 1) took lessons from a teacher in his hometown, 2) made an effort to go and hear performers at festivals, and 3) transcribed and learned all the licks and tunes on albums that he liked. He says that when he showed up at Grisman's doorstep, he was able to play everything he'd heard on Grisman's albums because that's what he did: Transcribed what he heard and practiced it.

Hearing more pro players asked about "What was your learning process?" forms a large part of the material in the book, The Practice of Practice by Jonathan Harnum. In the author's words, "To prepare for The Practice of Practice, I conducted in-depth interviews with dozens of world-class musicians, pored over all the published research on music and other kinds of practice, and combined all of that with my own +35 years of experience as a musician, teacher, and scholar."

The interviews were done with more than 20 great musicians of many genre and instruments. Great study, IMO.

Grass Talk Radio Interview With Mike Marshall

Book: The Practice of Practice

NFI

[JonZ]

This has a lot of interviews.
https://itsgoodpractice.wordpress.com

I am wondering too about the difference between “how I learned to play” and “how I practice now”.

My kids never transcribed, all the way until they were good enough to play with professionals. Now they are doing some transcribing. I think a lot of musicians go through phases. Marshall went through an ear phase to learn a style that was not written down, but he has also devoured a ton of musical scores.

The process that Marshall uses when he teaches is very stuctured.

[Mark Gunter]

It's interesting to me how many musicians have gained their chops at transcribing music they like. Most pros listen to stuff they like and figure out how to play it. They do this by ear. Sometimes they write it down (truly transcribe it), sometimes they just memorize it.

Many of the amateur and pro musicians in these forums often give the same advice: Play a record, CD, MP3 (etc.) and play along with it by ear.

It's a great way to learn musical language and vocabulary, and you could become very fluent by doing nothing but that, and playing with a friend or two.

[foldedpath]

It's interesting to me how many musicians have gained their chops at transcribing music they like. Most pros listen to stuff they like and figure out how to play it. They do this by ear. Sometimes they write it down (truly transcribe it), sometimes they just memorize it.

Many of the amateur and pro musicians in these forums often give the same advice: Play a record, CD, MP3 (etc.) and play along with it by ear.

It's a great way to learn musical language and vocabulary, and you could become very fluent by doing nothing but that, and playing with a friend or two.

There is another level to this, and that's learning how to play with other musicians. You have to play out to do that... join local amateur jams, or join a band and learn that way. You learn how to listen to what the other musicians are doing, instead of just what your own instrument is doing. You learn how to lock into the group rhythm feel.

Amateur or pro, this is something you'll never learn with any structured practice regime playing alone at home, or just playing along with recordings, or studying with a teacher. It's not enough, unless your only aim is to be a solo performer.

And to be clear, there's nothing wrong with that. But it is a different set of skills, something easy to ignore when listening to how a highly skilled player like Chris Thile performs in a group situation. It's not just about his incredible mandolin chops. It's how he's listening and interacting with the other musicians.

This is the next step past whatever private practice you're doing at home. You can really jump-start your private practice by getting out there and playing with other good musicians.

[Jess L.]

I know people who have had enough will to practice for years—with minimal progress. Some willful people bang their heads against a wall with great passion.

Well... aside from purely mechanical or physiological limitations, I'd chalk most of that up to not having a proper guide (mentor, teacher, whatever) to give them pointers. Hard to learn anything in a vacuum.

... When it comes to practicing, an even better question would be, "What things did you do to get better?" ...

Once in a while, as much as I could stand, I'd record my own playing (this was after I got my first suitcase-sized monaural 7-inch-reel tape recorder), then I'd listen to it a bunch of times until I started noticing a bunch of flaws. Then I knew what to work on next.

The sounds I didn't like in my own playing, really got under my skin and I just figured I could probably do better if I set my mind to it. So I'd work on those. Some things didn't improve for years (pushing the beat too much, tense playing), other things were easier to fix (wrong chord or something).

Discouraging the first few times, and not suitable for beginners, but after a person has been playing for a while it's a valuable tool.

Bear in mind that home recordings are not going to sound like fancy slick studio recordings. The studios apparently use dishonest trickery to phony-up the music *after* it's recorded to make bad musicians sound good. None of us mere mortals can compare to that.

But recording-equipment issues aside, a home recording can still be a useful tool. Have to recognize what the technique/etc problems are, before being able to properly address them.

P.S.: Yes I do regard all of that as "fun". It's far easier to *do*, than to describe. Pretty casual. Sounds strict but it isn't at all. And I never set time limits, I just work on something until either (a) I feel I've made some progress with it, and/or (b) I'm tired of it, whichever comes first, then take a break (days, weeks, months, whatever), go work on something else and come back to that later, when I feel like it. I've been known to play every day for 5 hours non-stop except for coffee refills and bathroom break, and I've also been known to not play at all for long periods of time. The main thing, it all brings joy and helps me to relax. That's the whole point of playing music, IMO, is to enjoy the music. There are different ways of getting there.

[bratsche]

I was a very stubborn and rebellious kid. And I thrived on structured violin practice. That was the form my rebellion took. It was not adult-driven; I entirely started it and followed it through, and my parents must have thought I was a changeling at times. They had to force me get out of the practice room occasionally, to make me go out and get fresh air, play with other kids, etc. But I knew from an early age what I wanted, and that proficient playing wasn't going to be magically given to me on a silver platter.

In retrospect, I think that determined spirit toward learning to make music was a blessing. I know I would have gotten into a heck of a lot more trouble than I did, if I hadn't had something to drive and occupy 99% of my mind with.

bratsche

[Bertram Henze]

I was a very stubborn and rebellious kid. And I thrived on structured violin practice. That was the form my rebellion took. It was not adult-driven; I entirely started it and followed it through, and my parents must have thought I was a changeling at times.

Exactly my story, only my theme were computers, not music. I spent most of my childhood time with this:

And yes, it was a complete mystery to my parents, but it led me to my profession (which has remained a mystery to my parents as well).

OTOH, or for exactly the same reason, if you will, my view of approaching music demanded that it must be totally different from this, feeling that music happens in a different section of my brain which works in a different way.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Bertram - "....I guess these pros had a strong will to play music,.." Absolutely correct !!. However,i'd guess that if you asked 20 different pro.musicians 'how' they learned,they'd have 20 different ways of learning,but the driving force is ''wanting to play''.

When i heard Bluegrass music for the very first time,there was nothing that could have prevented me from learning how to play Bluegrass banjo apart from an early departure from this world !. From hearing it,to having a band together took 3 years & 1,000s of hours of practice learning tunes from LPs 'at full tempo'. If you really have the will to do it,you'll get there one way or another,it simply takes time. As the ultimate goal of playing is to ''play tunes'',that's what i did from the very start & it worked for me,
Ivan

[Mark Gunter]

There is another level to this, and that's learning how to play with other musicians.

Right on. And in my own experience, the best of that is working out stuff with a buddy or two, especially finding those who are better than you are ... and playing in ensemble situations. Playing in jams are fun and helpful too, but getting with one or two guys who trade licks and talk about what they're doing is better than showing up at jams when they start and leaving when they're over.

Us old-timers who started playing before the internet and information explosion had to do it that way or not at all.

Bud Herspeth:

“We have to be careful about practice, because we start to practice practicing. We need to practice performing.”

[Mandoplumb]

Music can, I think, become too polished. That's what I dislike about so much of modern BG, it's too machanical. Flatt and Scruggs were smooth but they were musical, Bill Monroe was not smooth, some even say he was rough but he definitely was musical. I think sometimes we put too much valve and strive to be too technically accurate to maintain the musical quality.

[JonZ]

The guy who has the world record for consecutive free throws practices his shot exactly the same way every time and coaches people to do the same.

A researcher taught a group of students how to shoot free throws and then had them practice for the same amount of time each day. One group shot only from the free throw line. The other group alternated between shooting one foot in front of the free throw line and one foot behind the free throw line. The group that alternated performed significantly better on a final test.

Is it better to practice the same way every time or to alternate where you shoot from?

[Sherry Cadenhead]

Is it better to practice the same way every time or to alternate where you shoot from?

As for me, although I like a structured practice, from time to time I use my practice time just to play tunes. It's amazing to me how much better my playing is each time because of my focused practice sessions in between.

[JonZ]

In both models, the type of practice you are talking about is left out, which is odd.