Travel with my vintage mandolin

[Dagger Gordon]

With respect to the various comments here, I don't think many of them are addressing the main question which is to do with CITES and protected species of wood.

I understand that many of today's builders are avoiding using rosewood etc and trying to find suitable alternatives, but as far as vintage instruments go, is there a realistic concern that an instrument could be confiscated because it is partly made of (in this case) Madagascar ebony?

Questions regarding security are certainly valid, but are a rather different issue.

[FLATROCK HILL]

With respect to the various comments here, I don't think many of them are addressing the main question which is to do with CITES and protected species of wood.

I understand that many of today's builders are avoiding using rosewood etc and trying to find suitable alternatives, but as far as vintage instruments go, is there a realistic concern that an instrument could be confiscated because it is partly made of (in this case) Madagascar ebony?

Questions regarding security are certainly valid, but are a rather different issue.

It would be great if someone could give a definitive answer to your question. I don't think one is possible though. Here's a link to the CITES site:https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/what.php

Even if you are able to wade through all the species affected (in Latin), and find a crystal clear clause that exempts your specific instrument, would that information ensure it wouldn't be confiscated?

I recently traveled to and from Alaska by way of Canada. I had questions and concerns about a few of the items we purchased re customs and the CITES agreement etc. I made my inquiries with several well established and highly reputable dealers. In each case, I was assured that because of the age and specific nature of the (artwork) items, it was perfectly legal to buy, own and transport these items internationally.

BUT... In every case I was advised to ship the items. The bottom line was that even though these things were perfectly legal, the possibility of them being wrongly confiscated by over zealous customs agents still exists.

I think all the answers are buried in that link somewhere. The question is: Do you trust the agencies to understand and enforce the rules correctly?

[BradKlein]

It would be great if someone could give a definitive answer to your question.

I didn't wade into advice territory, since I don't think it's a real-world problem in this case. But if you want the best plain talk about musicians and CITES, look toward John Thomas - a real-life lawyer! He contributes regularly to Fretboard Journal. I think his most recent update is in THIS PODCAST.

[FLATROCK HILL]

WOW! Easy as pie.

...Instrument 'Passport'? Yes. Definitely. Simple... do it online. Except that U.S. Fish and Wildlife won't allow online transactions. But definitely 'Passport'. Unless you're covered by the Personal Effects clause. The clause is no good though if any items come under the Appendix #1... Brazilian, Ivory, (or the shell item that may not be mentioned on this forum) etc. And then there's the list of countries that don't recognize the Personal Effects clause...So, the Passport is definitely the way to go. And the Passport simply requires authentication by a designated appraiser of the year built if antique, or in the case of recent builds, the luthier's signed (and notarized) statement of the year the Rosewood was harvested... and in the case of Brazilian, pre or post '92. And you can avoid the hassle and ship it. Into the USA if the Rosewood content weighs no more than 22 lbs, but not into Europe if the entire weight of the package equals more than 22 lbs...

[jesserules]

Take the Kentucky. Leave the F4.

I think we're reaching a pretty definite consensus opinion here, hmm?

[Capt. E]

I remember a story by a photographer friend of mine traveling to India. He got to customs, his equipment being inspected. The inspector reached into one camera bag and took a lens out, putting under the counter. My friend vocalized his complaint. A supervisor came over and heard what was going on. He then reached into the bag and put another lens under the counter. My friend immediately knew that if he kept complaining, he would soon have no equipment what-so-ever. This is why he buys insurance.

Take the Kentucky

[Timbofood]

Are you guys saying that we have thieves working out there?

[j. condino]

I've traveled extensively all over the world- by plane and train, bus and bike and boat, cars and the back of old foreign dump trucks, by foot, by yak and nak, in war and peace and in adventure; ALWAYS taking the best instrument I owned. If by chance it was my last day on the planet, I never want to be the guy who is so obsessive about material possessions that they would rather leave them at home in the closet than live a full life to my best capabilities. There are no shortage of vintage F4s if something happens to it, but this is your one chance for this adventure together.....

[DPrager]

I'm curious about how widespread CITES issues, specifically confiscations really are. I travel a lot for work and play, and nearly always carry a mandolin. Only rarely have I even been asked to open a case.

Have any cafe members had CITES problems. I'm not asking about airline problems, really just CITES issues. If so, how many international borders did you cross per problem?

[Dagger Gordon]

I've traveled extensively all over the world- by plane and train, bus and bike and boat, cars and the back of old foreign dump trucks, by foot, by yak and nak, in war and peace and in adventure; ALWAYS taking the best instrument I owned. If by chance it was my last day on the planet, I never want to be the guy who is so obsessive about material possessions that they would rather leave them at home in the closet than live a full life to my best capabilities. There are no shortage of vintage F4s if something happens to it, but this is your one chance for this adventure together.....

Completely brilliant post! Those pictures are great.

He's got plenty more here. http://jazzmando.com/field_testing.shtml

[Capt. E]

I've traveled extensively all over the world- by plane and train, bus and bike and boat, cars and the back of old foreign dump trucks, by foot, by yak and nak, in war and peace and in adventure; ALWAYS taking the best instrument I owned. If by chance it was my last day on the planet, I never want to be the guy who is so obsessive about material possessions that they would rather leave them at home in the closet than live a full life to my best capabilities. There are no shortage of vintage F4s if something happens to it, but this is your one chance for this adventure together.....

Good viewpoint. I have to say camera equipment and vintage musical instruments are to VERY different things as far as theft temptation.

[dhergert]

The USA CITES instrument documentation rules are pretty clear. The problem is other national border crossings.

"Before traveling with your CITES- listed musical instrument, we recommend that you contact the national CITES authorities in the countries to which you are traveling."

-- US Fish and Wildlife Service => International Affairs => Musical Instruments

For an older instrument with very likely a Brazilian rosewood fingerboard, unless you love the paper mill and don't mind the possibility of loosing the instrument no matter how good your documentation is, I'd suggest leaving it home.

For a newer instrument -- even a Kentucky with a non-Brazilian rosewood fingerboard -- check to see if you can provide sufficient documentation. If not, leave it home.

I'd suggest buying a mandolin at your destination that you wouldn't mind leaving behind if necessary. Or renting. Or borrowing from a friend.

[Graham McDonald]

I would think it is unlikely that an early 20s F-4 would have anything else than an ebony fingerboard (Adrian's friend's instrument notwithstanding). I can't think of any Gibson use of rosewood at that time. in mandolins or guitars, but I may be wrong. Ebony of that period was likely to have been sourced from Central Africa or India rather than from Madagascar (how would anyone know anyway?) and in any case no ebony is on the CITES banned/restricted list. All the dalbergia species rosewoods are and the reasoning behind that is a whole other discussion. If there was anything which is suspect about your mandolin it might be the pearl/abalone fretboard marker and head inlay or an ivory nut.

I could not see any difficulties traveling to South Korea as part of an Olympic team and carrying a personal musical instrument. I would imagine you would be simply greeted with smiles and the necessary stamp in the passport. Re-entering the US as a US citizen with an American made mandolin should be similarly as easy, especially if you have some documentation about the instrument.. I have been coming into the US every year or two for 20 years, almost always with a mandolin or two in the overhead, and have never bee asked about them. As Jim suggests, a 6-tennis racket bag slung over the shoulder will comfortably hold two mandolins in gig bags and no-one every thinks twice about a tennis player.

Cheers

[almeriastrings]

As others have noted - ebony would not be a problem.

Brazilian rosewood? Yes.
Ivory? Yes.

Instruments with these materials are seized on a regular basis. Happens all the time.

I have no direct experience with customs in S. Korea so I have no idea how zealous they are... some places are super-zealous (e.g., Australia) others can be very lax...worth noting items can be seized 'on suspicion' pending scientific testing. So even items that might look like ivory/TS/BR can result in delay and inconvenience.

[Jim Nollman]

My own recent experience may add something to this discussion. I live close to the Canadian border, and have crossed it at least a few times a year over the past 30 years, usually to go shopping or spend a night on the town in Victoria or Vancouver. Never had a problem with Customs. I mean zilch.

I crossed the border last week. The depth of questioning that Customs takes with travelers has absolutely changed, and much for the worse. The exchanges on both sides of the border were downright prickly. On the Canadian side the Customs agent even gave me a little "gotcha" grin when I told her I couldn't say, specifically, what my wife and I would be shopping for during our Canadian overnight. That honest but vague answer prompted her to pull my wife and I (both of us 70 years old) out of the car line. Two agents in full body armor and weaponry then searched our car for the next twenty minutes, going through all our stuff.

My point is this. Take your Kentucky.

[J.Albert]

Dave wrote:
"I could just bring an inexpensive Kentucky model, but the F4 Sounds way better."

Take the Kentucky, no matter how good the F4 sounds.
The Kentucky is easily replaced if something goes wrong.
The F4... not so much.

[Russ Donahue]

My own recent experience may add something to this discussion. I live close to the Canadian border, and have crossed it at least a few times a year over the past 30 years, usually to go shopping or spend a night on the town in Victoria or Vancouver. Never had a problem with Customs. I mean zilch.

I crossed the border last week. The depth of questioning that Customs takes with travelers has absolutely changed, and much for the worse. The exchanges on both sides of the border were downright prickly. On the Canadian side the Customs agent even gave me a little "gotcha" grin when I told her I couldn't say, specifically, what my wife and I would be shopping for during our Canadian overnight. That honest but vague answer prompted her to pull my wife and I (both of us 70 years old) out of the car line. Two agents in full body armor and weaponry then searched our car for the next twenty minutes, going through all our stuff.

My point is this. Take your Kentucky.

Jeez. My family routinely travels to Michigan from Maine via Canada. Canadian customs have always been the nice ones...you just burst my bubble!

[Kieran]

Im not proposing that anyone take unnecessary risks traveling with valuable instruments but I remember being told by a Luthier earlier this year that traveling musicians have a 'personal allowance' of up to three instruments with regards to CITES materials in the instruments they are carrying.

[Jim Imhoff]

Bigger question here (literally): my 1918 Gibson K2 Mandocello. Traveling to several European countries, and playing with orchestra at Bruchsal Zupf-fest. I respect all the "don't take the good one" advice, but what is an alternative for an orchestral cello part? I have been asking around overseas, considering buying something there, reselling, renting, whatever might work. Octaves won't do (got one, not even close!) but maybe a decent bouzouki tuned CGDA...Any suggestions on a high quality bass instrument, either safe for travel or on a short-term rental in Europe/UK/Germany?
Also, is there any difference in customs/CITES concerns between carry-on and (securely crated)check-through?
Appreciate any experienced advice.
jim