"Bear Claw" spruce vs good straight grained spruce

[Jim Hudson]

Does anyone care to opine on the differences to expect between figured "bear claw" spruce and a good quality straight grained spruce. The application is the soundboard for an OM. I was told figured spruce may be stiffer??? Or is the difference simply cosmetic? The goal is to achieve the best sound - deep, woody and rich, that will stand up to aggresive flatpicking. Cosmetics are secondary. Thanks for your help!!

[Spruce]

I was told figured spruce may be stiffer???

Not necessarily...

Or is the difference simply cosmetic?

Yes.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's funny, I would imagine you couldn't give bear claw spruce to Martin or Gibson back in the 20's or 30's. They probably saw it as defective. Now it's a feature.

[Oliver A.]

It's like perfume. If it doesn't sell at $5 charge $50.

[Spruce]

It's funny, I would imagine you couldn't give bear claw spruce to Martin or Gibson back in the 20's or 30's.

Actually, everybody...
Up till the early 80's it was unsellable...
Enter Dana Bourgeois, building for Schoenberg Guitars, who built a run out of "BC" log, a fabulously figured bearclaw Sitka from the Olympic Peninsula...
Instant turnaround...

It's like perfume. If it doesn't sell at $5 charge $50.

Whether you like it or not, it is indeed rare...
One out of 50 trees has good bearclaw, and one out of 25-30 of those splits straight...
Do the math--it's hard to find and worthy of a good price bump...
(Not that I do)...

[Russ Jordan]

here is my 000-21, 12 fret built by Gerald Anderson. Gerald got the top from Dave Nichols

[Oliver A.]

good bearclaw

[Ivan Kelsall]

There are so many other factors to consider,that determining the 'effect' that one grain of wood will have against any 'other' grain of wood,could only be determined (maybe) by building 2 instruments as absolutely identical as possible using those woods to hopefully hear any differences. Even then,it's doubtful that you would hear a difference that was 'purely' down to the wood grain.
I did read a post on hear quite a while ago where the 'benefits' of Bearclaw tops were outlined, & i remember being pretty pleased with what was being said,as my Lebeda has a 'Bearclaw' German Spruce top on it - but i was also a bit sceptical. Recently,Lynn Dudenbostel said that Chris Thile's well known 'Dude' had a ''German Spruce'' top - like the one on my Lebeda. However,my Lebeda has it's 'own tone',which isn't at all like the tone of CT's 'Dude',but it is a tone that i like very much indeed,
Ivan

[Lord of the Badgers]

Seems a strange discussion - every mandolin has its own sound surely - so how can you ever tell? lol.
My Forster gzouk has bearclaw bits on it. It's interesting, as a nerd talking point, but it wouldn't have made a difference to me if it had all been straight grain.

[Jim Hudson]

Thanks to all, I know it is a question of individual instruments and their specific sound, just struggling mightily to decide whether to order the custom OM with bear claw or not. Russ, your triple-0 is gorgeous, one can only assume the sound is equally stunning? What wood does she have for back and sides? I love the responsiveness and rich sound of my Taylor 12 fret (all Koa). Slotted headstock? Spruce, I value your opinion, your comments are well taken. I have a quote from the luthier with the bear claw top which is within my budget but just don't want to value vanity over substance ...

[Jeff Hildreth]

German classical guitar maker Hauser often used, and preferred bear claw.

Puerto Rican guitar maker Manuel Velazquez , worked in the Hauser style also used, and preferred , bear claw.

When CF Martin IV asked the now defunct Acoustic Guitar Magazine discussion group to design the CEO-5.. bear claw was suggest (by me) and adopted as one of the main features of the CEO-5. Prior.. bearclaw was culled and considered "inferior".

[Lord of the Badgers]

I would say that it's obvious you're really into the idea of bearclaw - so why not do it? Better than to regret

[Russ Jordan]

Russ, your triple-0 is gorgeous, one can only assume the sound is equally stunning? What wood does she have for back and sides?

Jim--I love this guitar. Back and sides are Honduras rosewood. I had purchased the rosewood and a red spruce top from John Arnold. While at Gerald's I saw this bear claw sitka top and we traded. This guitar really came alive when I put Martin Retro monel strings on it---wish they made a monel mandolin string!

[Spruce]

I have a quote from the luthier with the bear claw top which is within my budget but just don't want to value vanity over substance ...

Out of curiosity, does your luthier value the bearclaw more than straight grained spruce? A lot of them do.

Luthiers like to gripe about the pricing of tonewoods, but a lot of times they are the ones driving the high pricing, and this is a good example...
(I don't charge more for bearclaw, for instance...)

Brazilian Rosewood is another example.
It wasn't the tonewood folks that put that high value on a set of BR, it was the luthiers...
(...and then tonewood suppliers followed suit...)

[oldwave maker]

David Perino once told me he had sent Martin several sets of San Pedro river mesquite (prosopis velutina) and it exploded in their planer, maybe earlier thicknessing machinery was hard on figured topwoods? Keeping the bearclaw top on the left for a personal build, it just speaks to me. Only topwood Don Musser ever asked about buying back!

[Spruce]

Only topwood Don Musser ever asked about buying back!

Blue Spruce by chance??
I don't know much about that species, but I do know that bearclaw is extremely rare in Red Spruce for some reason...
It exists, but I've never found one...

[darylcrisp]

I read a few years ago a short article where Richard Hoover (Santa Cruz guitars) was asked about "bearclaw". He had a couple sets that were really full of the "bearclaw", much like Russ' Anderson guitar above(and Russ that is a beauty, would love to hear a soundclip from that), and he felt the sets he had contributed to a specific tone. A well known(to the acoustic guitar world) fingerstyle/jazz player (Eric Skye) had a SantaCruz built from one of the bearclaw sets and he raved about it(small body 00 12 fret). He owned other SantaCruz guitars as well, but loved the bearclaw 00 so much he had another built if memory serves.

it may take me a few days but I will try to find that specific article, it was quite interesting.
(now I need to go adjust kitchen cabinet doors-took a weeks vacation and redid our kitchen, looking forward to returning to my paid job Monday............)

d

[oldwave maker]

Here's a closeup, pretty sure its Engelmann, discolored like a Mt. Wilson. Colorado log I used up years ago. Got a few bearclaw red tops from John Griffin at Old Standard a decade ago, but the most outrageously figured top in my stash is Sitka I got from you Bruce- thanks again!

[craigw]

On a cross country trip 3-4 years ago we hung out with Hans Brentrup in Minneapolis for a weekend. He had backed way off on mandolin building and I was able to procure from him some nice wood sets, among which was one of the most heavily bear clawed top billets I had ever seen. Late last year I used it on a 2-point mandola which I was fortunate enough to sell via a trade with Doyle Lawson at the Wintergrass festival in Bellevue, WA about three months ago. I sure don't hesitate to use bearclaw and really think it looks cool. This one was so heavily figured, though, that I thought the sunburst toned it down and made it a little more subtle. Here are some shots during the build and after it was finished.

[Phil Goodson]

....--wish they made a monel mandolin string!

Here you go Russ:
Gibson Sam Bush monel mandolin strings.

Or other option:

[Russ Jordan]

Thanks, Phil. Actually I'd like 'em with a fatter A string.

Here you go Russ:
Gibson Sam Bush monel mandolin strings.

Or other option:

[Oliver A.]

I haven't used a lot of bear-claw so I couldn't comment on it's sound qualities as opposed to non-bear-clawed. My gut tells me that it would be nearly impossible to definitively attribute a characteristic sound to the bear-claw figure in isolation from all other factors. My experience tells me that factors such as strength to weight would be much more significant than the bear-claw figure in determining the suitability of any of the spruces for use as a soundboard. The individual maker is also a huge factor. Personally, I don't really like the look of bear-claw on mandolins or even guitars for that matter. That is just my own personal preference. If you like the look, by all means, get a mandolin with a bear-claw top. The inherent quality of the wood combined with the makers skill will probably have way more influence on the resulting sound than the bear-claw figure, so if you dig it, no reason not to get it.

[bernabe]

Got a few bearclaw red tops from John Griffin at Old Standard a decade ago

Finishing up an A style now with a Red Spruce top with bearclaw from Old Standard. Ordered some tops last year and it just happened to be in there.

[sprucetop1]

Here in Europe in the violin-making world the term "hazel spruce" seems to be used for spruce that exhibits bearclaw. The German term is "haselfichte". I'm not sure that the terms hazel spruce and bearclaw spruce are describing the same property of the wood, but suspect that they probably are. Either way, many violin makers like spruce with the hazelling effect and use it.

[Jim Hudson]

So much great info. You guys are good! I'm going to discuss with the luthier now with much better info. The OM will be a cutaway guitar body with natural top finish. I love Craig's two point but agree that the sunburst slightly toned down the figuring.

I think the decision will boil down to what individual set the luthier can find. To some extent, with a custom build, it is out of my hands and I depend on the luthier building an instrument he or she is proud to put their name on. I love the process of working with the luthier on a custom build but it does take away the advantage of listening to the instrument before you buy. As buyer my control is limited, having most control over the look, depending largely on my choice of luthier. I have and will continue to communicate the sound I desire but we all know such descriptions are limited. I am awed by how you guys take someones words and transcribe them into the bones of a great instrument.

Spruce, you are correct that it was the luthier who suggested the figured top. I do like the look, but the look is secondary. What seems clear is that a figured top, despite their rejection in the past, CAN sound as good as straight grained in the hands of a good luthier.

Oldwave, the top on the far left does have a wonderful ring and look to it! I can only hope my luthier can find one like it.

Thanks to all for the great discussion and info!