Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Sometimes you have to take a chance and buy an instrument from either an unknown maker or an established maker without trying the instrument out ! As Paul Harvey ( if you've never heard of Paul Harvey I feel sorry for you would say, " Now the rest of the story ", but it would take too many pages to elaborate !! Case in point ( VERY shortened version ), Back in 1983 I bought a violin (fiddle for some of you) for twelve thousand dollars from a man by the name of Sergio Peresson in New Jersey ! Everyone ( including my mom who I borrowed the money from) thought I was nuts !! Fast forward ( leaving out the fantastic story behind the purchase ) to 2-3 years ago that violin ( I know, some of you want me to call it a fiddle) was taken to Saint Louis ( by the new owner, my daughter) to be appraised at Bearden Violin Shop ! She ( my daughter) was given an appraisal for $48000. and an offer to buy from her at any time she wants to sell it ! She doesn't and won't as she plays classical in a group and would never part with it or the story behind it ! I assume that this instrument would take over fifty thousand dollars now to replace it. Sometimes you have to take a chance !! My next purchase is a Wienman F5, an unknown maker to a lot of us and someday I may post back here on the forum with, "Now here's the rest of the story"
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to yankees1 For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Some Ability - No Talent MikeZito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    850
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    I LOVE stories like that - it completely flies in the face of those who say that only the 'big name' instruments will appreciate in value . . .
    - 1929 Martin Style 20
    - 2015 Washburn M1SDL
    - 2016 Kentucky KM-272
    - 2017 Gretsch 9350 Park Avenue

  4. #3
    Administrator Mandolin Cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Posts
    1,158
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Advice on taking chances from a guy that eschews arguably the world's finest beverage outside of beer and coffee for Two Buck Chuck. Listening closely.


  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mandolin Cafe For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Cafe View Post
    Advice on taking chances from a guy that eschews arguably the world's finest beverage outside of beer and coffee for Two Buck Chuck. Listening closely.

    I had to look eschews up in the dictionary !!
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  7. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    springfield,ohio
    Posts
    527

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    I guess we as a whole need to be more open to the small builder/one man shop builders.. Those big name guys had to get a start somewhere/sometime and chances are that they chose to keep chasing their love of the craft.. I've had a few builds that were just outstanding , and a few that were not so much.. And the few that were stellar is what keeps me going out to the shop and chasing that dream....
    kterry

  8. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    4,809

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    About 20 years ago my brother passed away and I got his fiddle and I had a fiddle player come to my house to play it and let me know what he thought about it, he told me it wasn`t much more than a student violin, 5 years later that same fiddle player came by again to do some jamming and he saw the fiddle hanging on the wall and took it down, tuned it up and played a few tunes on it and said it was as fine a fiddle that he had ever played....I told him it was the same fiddle that he said was a student violin and he said he must have been drinking that day and said he wanted to buy the fiddle but I still have it even though I can`t play a note on it...Some of the best sounding fiddles now days sold at Montgomery Wards many years ago for less than $100,,,OR SO I HAVE HEARD, WHO KNOWS?

    Willie

  9. The following members say thank you to Willie Poole for this post:


  10. #7
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    south florida
    Posts
    2,709

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by yankees1 View Post
    Sometimes you have to take a chance and buy an instrument from either an unknown maker or an established maker without trying the instrument out ! As Paul Harvey ( if you've never heard of Paul Harvey I feel sorry for you would say, " Now the rest of the story ", but it would take too many pages to elaborate !! Case in point ( VERY shortened version ), Back in 1983 I bought a violin (fiddle for some of you) for twelve thousand dollars from a man by the name of Sergio Peresson in New Jersey !
    You did great, but he wasn't exactly unknown. The name rang a bell (I think a friend owns one, but I'll have to check) so I looked at the Wikipedia article which says, in part:

    "Soloists who have owned and performed on Peresson instruments include: Isaac Stern, Yehudi Menuhin, Ivan Galamian, William DePasquale, Pinchas Zukerman, Norman Carol, Jaime Laredo, Eugene Fodor, Maria Bachmann, Lenuta Ciulei, Mstislav Rostropovich, Jacqueline du Prι, and Alexander Markov who performed his famous recording of Paganini's 24 Caprices on a 1970 Peresson violin."

    The '80s (and before) were a great time to buy... too bad I was pretty broke back then. Not uncommon at all for such appreciation to occur.

    bratsche
    "There are two refuges from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

    GearGems - Gifts & apparel for musicians and more!
    MandolaViola's YouTube Channel

  11. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    You did great, but he wasn't exactly unknown. The name rang a bell (I think a friend owns one, but I'll have to check) so I looked at the Wikipedia article which says, in part:

    "Soloists who have owned and performed on Peresson instruments include: Isaac Stern, Yehudi Menuhin, Ivan Galamian, William DePasquale, Pinchas Zukerman, Norman Carol, Jaime Laredo, Eugene Fodor, Maria Bachmann, Lenuta Ciulei, Mstislav Rostropovich, Jacqueline du Prι, and Alexander Markov who performed his famous recording of Paganini's 24 Caprices on a 1970 Peresson violin."

    The '80s (and before) were a great time to buy... too bad I was pretty broke back then. Not uncommon at all for such appreciation to occur.

    bratsche
    He was the established maker , not the unknown maker according to my original posting! There were over 300 people on his waiting list for a Peresson when Sergio died !
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  12. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Many years ago a famous violinist died. Leaving behind no family members, there was no one to whom he could bequeath his Stradivarius. An auction was summarily convened, in part, to sell the instrument. It was eventually purchased by another violinist. He paid twenty thousand dollars for the violin, a sizeable sum in its day.

    Shortly thereafter the new owner of the Stradivarius announced that he would play a concert on his new violin. When the evening arrived the concert hall was filled to capacity. People were waiting in breathless anticipation. At just the right moment he walked out on stage with nothing but his violin and he began to play a composition of Paganini. He held the audience spell-bound. His technique was flawless. His tone was exquisite. At the conclusion of the final note, the audience instantaneously jumped to their feet and roared with applause. He bowed, simply, and walked off stage. A few seconds later, with the applause still thundering, he walked back on stage, took his violin by its neck, raised it over his head and smashed it on a nearby piano bench, shattering it into a thousand pieces. Hen then walked off the stage. The audience was horrified. They were stunned. A moment later a second man walked out on stage and stood before the people. They became very quiet as he spoke these words: ‘The violin on which the maestro has just performed his first selection, the same violin that he has just destroyed, was but a twenty dollar violin. He will now perform the rest of the concert on the twenty-thousand dollar Stradivarius.’ MORAL of the story! It's the player not the instrument being played on !!
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  13. The following members say thank you to yankees1 for this post:


  14. #10
    Registered User Eric F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    2,113

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Cafe View Post
    Advice on taking chances from a guy that eschews arguably the world's finest beverage outside of beer and coffee for Two Buck Chuck. Listening closely.

    Wait. There are beverages other than coffee and beer?

  15. #11
    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Oxfordshire, England
    Posts
    402

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric F. View Post
    Wait. There are beverages other than coffee and beer?
    Yes, you forgot whisky and wine.

  16. The following members say thank you to OneChordTrick for this post:


  17. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by OneChordTrick View Post
    Yes, you forgot whisky and wine.
    Green tea with several drops of Essential Oils tangerine orange ! My boozin days are over ! Well, mostly !
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  18. #13
    Registered User Billy Packard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Grass Valley
    Posts
    451

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    I have a little bit of a story like that.

    After searching for a really nice mandolin in the very late 80's into the 90's I got a call from Dexter Johnson to come check out an instrument he had waiting to be picked up. It was by a maker I'd never heard of. From the first note on I was amazed. It took another 6 months to coax my then-wife to come on board with the purchase. When she did I plopped my deposit down and got my Gilchrist A3 four months later. It cost me the princely fee of $2000.00 at the time, case was extra.

    Billy
    Billy Packard
    Gilchrist A3, 1993
    Weber Fern, 2007
    Gibson F4 Hybrid #1, D. Harvey 2009
    Gibson 1923 A2
    Numerous wonderful guitars

  19. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Packard View Post
    I have a little bit of a story like that.

    After searching for a really nice mandolin in the very late 80's into the 90's I got a call from Dexter Johnson to come check out an instrument he had waiting to be picked up. It was by a maker I'd never heard of. From the first note on I was amazed. It took another 6 months to coax my then-wife to come on board with the purchase. When she did I plopped my deposit down and got my Gilchrist A3 four months later. It cost me the princely fee of $2000.00 at the time, case was extra.

    Billy
    WOW ! Fantastic ! Still have it ?
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  20. #15

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    I think the classical string world has the correct method of evaluating an instrument. I've has the pleasure of visiting Roland Feller's shop in SanFrancisco. You go in looking for an instrument, he asked you your budget, brings you five instruments, and has you play them.

    One is usually under budget, one over, and the rest are close. You don't know what is what. You decide what you like with no cost or brand influence. I've done this with both my daughters and never did they pick the most expensive. The most expensive was always a more well known maker.

    How I wish I could buy a guitar or mandolin like that.
    Silverangel Econo
    Michael Kelly LSFTB

  21. #16
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    south florida
    Posts
    2,709

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by yankees1 View Post
    Green tea with several drops of Essential Oils tangerine orange ! My boozin days are over ! Well, mostly !
    Have you tried ginger beer? I only recently had the pleasure, and now I can't get enough - I wonder exactly where it has been all my life! Just a little like ginger ale, but way better. My alcohol consumption is considerably down since discovering it.

    bratsche
    "There are two refuges from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

    GearGems - Gifts & apparel for musicians and more!
    MandolaViola's YouTube Channel

  22. #17
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    south florida
    Posts
    2,709

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    I think the classical string world has the correct method of evaluating an instrument. I've has the pleasure of visiting Roland Feller's shop in SanFrancisco. You go in looking for an instrument, he asked you your budget, brings you five instruments, and has you play them.

    One is usually under budget, one over, and the rest are close. You don't know what is what. You decide what you like with no cost or brand influence. I've done this with both my daughters and never did they pick the most expensive. The most expensive was always a more well known maker.

    How I wish I could buy a guitar or mandolin like that.
    In the olden days, the dealers would even send them out! When I was in my early twenties, one shipped me four violins in my price range. I ended up buying the ugliest one - mismatched back pieces, the fit and finish were a mess, but it sounded the best. Afterwards, the dealer agreed with me! He said he was unable to sell it to his more sophisticated buyers. But I wanted, and got, a "player". It served me well until I became a violist.

    bratsche
    "There are two refuges from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer

    GearGems - Gifts & apparel for musicians and more!
    MandolaViola's YouTube Channel

  23. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Many years ago I use to go to the library in Springfield, Il and look through the for sale ads in all the newspapers looking for violins and mandolins ! I happen to look at ads in a Los Angeles newspaper and noticed an older Gibson A mandolin for sale for around $275. I called the older gentlemen and asked for information on the Gibson. He told me to come over and try the mandolin out ! I told him this would be difficult as I lived in Illinois ! He told me since I was so far away that he would let me have it for $175.00 and he would ship the mandolin to me with no payment !!! He said that if I liked it I could send him the $175. and if I didn't to send it back ! I received the mandolin and sent him a check for the $175. !!! Luckily for the old man he was dealing with a honest person ! Those days of handshakes and your word are gone !
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  24. #19
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    11,531

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by yankees1 View Post
    Luckily for the old man he was dealing with a honest person ! Those days of handshakes and your word are gone !
    Indeed. I'm currently contemplating just how I might go about filing a small claims suit in New York State for breach of contract over an instrument purchase, without having to fly out there just to file. (Once I had a court date I'd fly out for the hearing.)
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Donaldson • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Old Wave • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  25. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Indeed. I'm currently contemplating just how I might go about filing a small claims suit in New York State for breach of contract over an instrument purchase, without having to fly out there just to file. (Once I had a court date I'd fly out for the hearing.)
    Particulars ? Were you buyer or seller ? I hope you don't throw good money after bad and waste your time and money !
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  26. #21
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    11,531

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    No particulars, thanks. I have another way of trying to resolve this first. I may report on my sad tale when it's over.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Donaldson • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Old Wave • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  27. #22
    Mandolin user MontanaMatt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Bozeman, MT
    Posts
    457

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by yankees1 View Post
    Many years ago a famous violinist died. Leaving behind no family members, there was no one to whom he could bequeath his Stradivarius. An auction was summarily convened, in part, to sell the instrument. It was eventually purchased by another violinist. He paid twenty thousand dollars for the violin, a sizeable sum in its day.

    Shortly thereafter the new owner of the Stradivarius announced that he would play a concert on his new violin. When the evening arrived the concert hall was filled to capacity. People were waiting in breathless anticipation. At just the right moment he walked out on stage with nothing but his violin and he began to play a composition of Paganini. He held the audience spell-bound. His technique was flawless. His tone was exquisite. At the conclusion of the final note, the audience instantaneously jumped to their feet and roared with applause. He bowed, simply, and walked off stage. A few seconds later, with the applause still thundering, he walked back on stage, took his violin by its neck, raised it over his head and smashed it on a nearby piano bench, shattering it into a thousand pieces. Hen then walked off the stage. The audience was horrified. They were stunned. A moment later a second man walked out on stage and stood before the people. They became very quiet as he spoke these words: ‘The violin on which the maestro has just performed his first selection, the same violin that he has just destroyed, was but a twenty dollar violin. He will now perform the rest of the concert on the twenty-thousand dollar Stradivarius.’ MORAL of the story! It's the player not the instrument being played on !!
    Sound like urban legend, i.e. False
    I've played fiddle for 34 yrs...cheap fiddles sound bad. I've played hundreds of nice and cheap ones.
    There are fantastic deals to be had, but once you play a hot rod fiddle, there is no going back. It's like vintage tube amps for guitars...apples and oranges. A cheap fiddle can be played well, but can't fill an auditorium.

    I bought my Weber before I knew how to play well, and before i knew of (understood) its esteem. I got talked into it by a buddy that worked there. Great decision, and got the buddy deal. My latest mando, a custom Ratliff, was underpriced for build quality and tone/volume. I've played it alongside Stanley, Gills, Gibson, and several others. Purchase price has little to do with end product. My Ratliff rocks, and I can't wait to hear it in a decade.

    As many connoisseurs have commented, it's all about the specific pieces of wood, the talent of the luthier, and the luck of the outcome of the combo. If there weren't mistakes we'd never hear of regraduations or retopping. I bet every top builder has had duds. I've read some Loars are unimpressive...?
    2007 Weber Custom Elite "old wood"
    2017 Ratliff R5 Custom #1148
    Several nice old Fiddles
    2007 Martin 000-15S 12 fret Auditorium-slot head
    Deering Classic Open Back
    Too many microphones

  28. #23

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    In the olden days, the dealers would even send them out! When I was in my early twenties, one shipped me four violins in my price range. I ended up buying the ugliest one - mismatched back pieces, the fit and finish were a mess, but it sounded the best. Afterwards, the dealer agreed with me! He said he was unable to sell it to his more sophisticated buyers. But I wanted, and got, a "player". It served me well until I became a violist.

    bratsche
    They still do. My daughter bought a $20,000 viola last year. She had a viola from New York, two from Boston, one from SF and one from LA in her house for two weeks for evaluation. She did not buy any of them. Paid the freight. She decided on one, sent the rest back, then kept the one she bought for another two weeks until deciding to buy it and sending the dealer a check.
    Silverangel Econo
    Michael Kelly LSFTB

  29. #24
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Manchester - Lancashire - NW England
    Posts
    13,486

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    From yankees1 - " I had to look ''eschews'' up in the dictionary..". Made by Hershey's i believe.

    IMHO - regardless of the builder,known / unknown - we take a chance when we buy an instrument ''unheard''. Ok,so the most well known builders would be expected tp build a mandolin ''more pleasing'' to us,but that's not always the case, as the tone of an instrument can be a very individualistic taste.

    Re-visiting the tale of Mr Weinman & his 'for us', newly discovered instruments,he may be 'new to us',but as i mentioned in the previous post regarding his mandolins,to my eyes,they're the product of a guy who knows his trade absolutely. I'd like to know the feelings of the first person to order a Gilchrist, ''sight unseen / sound unheard'' !. How did they feel ?.

    My 3 current mandolins all came to me 'unheard'. I knew of the reputation of Weber,i'd had a previous Lebeda,so i knew of Jiri Lebeda's ''build standard'',the same with my Ellis "A" style. It might have been the case that i'd disliked any one of them,but it wasn't. They sound 'different' one to another,but to my ears they all sound 'good'.
    If i was in the market for a high quality mandolin (& lived in the US !),i wouldn't hesitate for a second to order one from Mr Weinman - especially after the reports on the tone of the one at George Gruhn's store.

    We all take chances every day in our choices of 'anything',most often they're 'informed choices' (my Lebeda for instance),sometimes we take a risk of something not being exactly what we'd hoped for - that's the way it goes !. If anybody on here knows how to take the risk out of 'anything at all' - please let us all know !,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

  30. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,487

    Default Re: Sometimes You Have to Take a Chance !

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    From yankees1 - " I had to look ''eschews'' up in the dictionary..". Made by Hershey's i believe.

    IMHO - regardless of the builder,known / unknown - we take a chance when we buy an instrument ''unheard''. Ok,so the most well known builders would be expected tp build a mandolin ''more pleasing'' to us,but that's not always the case, as the tone of an instrument can be a very individualistic taste.

    Re-visiting the tale of Mr Weinman & his 'for us', newly discovered instruments,he may be 'new to us',but as i mentioned in the previous post regarding his mandolins,to my eyes,they're the product of a guy who knows his trade absolutely. I'd like to know the feelings of the first person to order a Gilchrist, ''sight unseen / sound unheard'' !. How did they feel ?.

    My 3 current mandolins all came to me 'unheard'. I knew of the reputation of Weber,i'd had a previous Lebeda,so i knew of Jiri Lebeda's ''build standard'',the same with my Ellis "A" style. It might have been the case that i'd disliked any one of them,but it wasn't. They sound 'different' one to another,but to my ears they all sound 'good'.
    If i was in the market for a high quality mandolin (& lived in the US !),i wouldn't hesitate for a second to order one from Mr Weinman - especially after the reports on the tone of the one at George Gruhn's store.

    We all take chances every day in our choices of 'anything',most often they're 'informed choices' (my Lebeda for instance),sometimes we take a risk of something not being exactly what we'd hoped for - that's the way it goes !. If anybody on here knows how to take the risk out of 'anything at all' - please let us all know !,
    Ivan
    It's WIEnman not WEInman ! Now, back to my Planters Eschews for a snack !
    Last edited by yankees1; Dec-03-2017 at 6:31am.
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •