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Thread: Playing a Seven Chord

  1. #26
    Phil Goodson Philphool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandobart View Post
    The convention I've seen is upper case Roman numerals for major, lower case for minor. So the standard doo-wop is I-vi-IV-V. Am is the vi in the key of C. A is the VI in the key of C. Since the key of Am is the relative minor of C, there are no sharps or flats, so C is the III in the key of Am. C# is the III in the key of A, and C#m would be the iii. B is the bIII in the key of Am. This isn't really music theory, its just one of many conventions for naming/denoting chord changes.
    I don't think I've ever heard anyone recommend calling B the bIII in the key of Am. If that's right then my brain is spinning.
    Phil

    “Sharps/Flats” ≠ “Accidentals”

  2. #27
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    B is never the III, flat or otherwise, of Am. It is the II of A. I'm guessing Bart made a typo.

    BTW, the NNS people do not favor lower case Romans ever. They want us to say III minor, bVII Major, V augmented, etc...
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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  3. #28
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandobart View Post
    The convention I've seen is upper case Roman numerals for major, lower case for minor. So the standard doo-wop is I-vi-IV-V. Am is the vi in the key of C. A is the VI in the key of C. Since the key of Am is the relative minor of C, there are no sharps or flats, so C is the III in the key of Am. C# is the III in the key of A, and C#m would be the iii. B is the bIII in the key of Am. This isn't really music theory, its just one of many conventions for naming/denoting chord changes.
    According to the NNS site I checked, https://www.howmusicreallyworks.com/...ter_6/6_4.html you use the chord/degree names for C major for A minor. Am is the 6 minor in the key of A minor. They also discourage lower case Roman numerals, while conceding that it is not a universal standard.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

  4. #29
    Mandolin Friendly Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    Nashville Number System, ok, understood you desire to follow NNS conventions Jim. But NNS is not what I'm describing, but simply the conventions used in music classes and music theory writings quite apart from NNS. The way I learned was from theorists who used capital Romans to indicate major chords and lowercase Romans to indicate minor chords. I think it eliminates confusion when teaching diatonic harmony. However, I've heard more than one proponent of NNS make the similar statement as your article:

    Don’t do this. Do not use lower-case Roman numerals, ever. It only breeds confusion.
    But, personally I think it only breeds confusion in the minds of those who are fully immersed in NNS.

    I believe NNS was developed originally for writing charts for session musicians in Nashville who couldn't read music. Something to that effect, anyway. Over time it has been refined to notate timing etc. So as a system of charting or notating changes in music it is a wonderful tool. I don't know if it will ever dominate the entire world of music, or bend the practice of teaching diatonic harmony concepts exclusively to its conventions, though.

    I learned a while back (before picking up the mandolin) when playing with guys who had played in sessions in Nashville, that they would consider a song to be in the key of D when I was playing a tune in B minor - and to me it has really simplified things to think only of the major key as "the key". So a tune in a "minor key" is called by its relative major key name ... that makes total sense in our system of music, to relate all modes to their relative major key.
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  5. #30
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    On the contrary, I prefer Upper/lower Romans for Major/minor. I was just relaying what I learned. I personally would call Am the 1 in the key of A minor. Saying "6 minor" and all the other conversions necessary to follow a song would make my head explode.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

  6. #31
    Mandolin Friendly Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    BTW, my last post and Jim Broyles' previous posts just underscore the point I was trying to make in my post #25 - that the numbers are confusing to any student or player of music unless he has a good grasp of the context. Numbers can be thrown out in many different contexts and even in different formats. To me it just emphasizes why studying music theory, notation, tablature, NNS and anything else you can handle is a good thing if you want to discuss music with other musicians. It can make it easier to play music with other musicians if you can understand where they're coming from and what "music theory dialect" they use. Not necessary for being able to play, but helpful in communicating verbally or on the written page.
    Technique, theory and fun, fun, fun. I love playing, studying and sharing MUSIC.
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
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    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
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  7. #32
    Phil Goodson Philphool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    B is never the III, flat or otherwise, of Am. It is the II of A. I'm guessing Bart made a typo.
    ...
    Could be. I thought that Bart was saying that in Am key, he considered C natural to be the III, and therefore the flat III (Cb) was being referred to as "B". I may have misinterpreted his meaning.

    But your explanation is what I've always heard and used.
    Phil

    “Sharps/Flats” ≠ “Accidentals”

  8. #33
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    That may be the case. It sounds pedantic, but this is theory forum, after all: the 3 of A anything has to be C something, even if it is enharmonic with B natural.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

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  10. #34
    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post

    BTW, the NNS people do not favor lower case Romans ever. They want us to say III minor, bVII Major, V augmented, etc...
    Nashville Numbers are arabic not roman.
    iii or IIIm = 3- in NNS.

    I think NNS vs Roman Numeral Analysis deserve their own thread or threads. The OP asked his question in terms of Roman numerals. Both systems are handy and both have pros and cons.

  11. #35
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    According to the site I linked they use both.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

  12. #36

    Default Re: Playing a Seven Chord

    I'm a firm believer in using the number "one", or "i" for the tonic in a minor key. Using the numbers for the relative major key is misleading and bad theory. The numbers should show the function IN THE PROPER KEY. I'm also a proponent of using lower case Roman numerals for minor, as is it simple and saves time and ink.

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