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Thread: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

  1. #1

    Default Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    Hi folks. I've got an old Gibson F4 but the serial number is mostly faded. The last three digits are perhaps 670 or 690. It has the standard oval sticker. It has the decorated handel tuners, which I gather means it can't be older than 1917. But those tuners also have domed spools. Does that help date it, anyone?

    thx
    RandyClick image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    There are some who could give you a date range by looking at tuner shafts. But not I. Look inside the mandolin, through the soundhole, at the neck block and see if you can find a stamped factory order number.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    Alas, no FON on block.

  4. #4
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    Well, try posting photos of the whole enchilada, front and back. Shape of the pickguard, material thereof, type of bracket, fretboard details, finish colors, etc., all changed subtly through the years as well.
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    Gibson stopped using Handel tuners by 1919. The latest mandolins with ball-end tuner shafts were around 1915 or so. This is assuming that the tuners are original to the instrument.

    A picture of the front of the mandolin, showing the bridge and pickguard, would also be useful. A picture of the back might help also.

    If you shine a flashlight into the soundhole, you should see a number on the neck block. It's on the upper part of the block, so you've got to get your nose right down to the top to see it.

    We can date the mandolins to within a couple of years by the parts only if they haven't been changed. We don't see blonde F-4's made later than 1914 or so, and black F-4's disappear around 1916.

    All the above dates are only approximate, especially since Joe Spann's book with the updated serial number list came out a few years ago.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    OK Here are some photos. There is no FON on neck block.

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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    If I had to guess, I'd say it's somewhere around 1913 shipment date by Spann's guide, or a 1915-ish by traditional estimates. I'm seeing a lot of similarity between this one and these three on the archive:

    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/22712

    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/22715

    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/22735

    Those are all pretty close to each other in serial number range. If this one had a last-three digit S/N of 670 or 690, it could be just before these.
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    The pickguard and bridge are mid 'teens style. 1915 or 1916 is a reasonable estimate. 1917 would probably have different tuner posts. 1914 would probably have an earlier style bridge and pickguard.

    That's a nice mandolin.

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    1914 would still have the "stinger" in the end of the fretboard, no? I'd concur with '15-'16.
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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    1914 would still have the "stinger" in the end of the fretboard, no? I'd concur with '15-'16.
    I think that did disappear some time during 1914. The latest one I see in the archive with that feature is in the 17000 serial number range. By the 19000 serial number range (still 1914 according to the archive), it was replaced by the little corner like we see on this one. So yeah, the earliest this could be is late 1914 but most likely 1915-1916.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    Many thanks for the info and estimate. It's a keeper for sure. I have an F5 style mandolin but this one is full of ancient, round tones and is more fun to play.

    Randy



    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    The pickguard and bridge are mid 'teens style. 1915 or 1916 is a reasonable estimate. 1917 would probably have different tuner posts. 1914 would probably have an earlier style bridge and pickguard.

    That's a nice mandolin.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    I often wonder why oval hole mandolins are not more in demand. I like the tone and the sustain. A lot of records were made with them in the old days. You will hear F-4's played on early recordings made by Flatt and Scruggs, Stanley Brothers, and many others.

  13. #13
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    Oval-hole, carved-top mandolins are wonderful instruments, and -- in some cases -- quite suitable for bluegrass. The easy answer as to why f-hole mandolins dominate the bluegrass scene, is "That's what Bill Monroe played," so they must be the standard.

    The more nuanced answer, is that f-hole instruments -- again, as a rule -- have a more percussive initial "attack" when picked, with quicker decay so the notes don't sustain as long. You can hear similar differences when you listen to an round-hole, flat-top guitar (there aren't too many round-hole, carved-top guitars -- a few since the early Gibsons, but not a lot), and compare the sound to a carved-top, f-hole "jazz guitar."

    The sharp attack and quicker decay work well for the standard bluegrass rhythm "chop" mandolin style, and also help the mandolin cut through the other instruments when taking breaks. There other differences -- traditionally, f-hole instruments had longer, raised necks and more centrally-placed bridges, which also could give them an edge.

    Jimmy Martin's early bands generally featured an F-4, often played by Paul Williams but owned by Martin; Curly Seckler played an F-2 in the Foggy Mountain Boys, nearly always as a rhythm instrument. Monroe himself played and recorded with an F-4 when his Loar was "in the shop." It's true, however, that the standard bluegrass mandolin is an f-hole instrument now, so much so that quite a few vintage F-2's and F-4's were broken up for their back and sides, and converted to "F-5's" with new f-hole tops and longer necks. A pity, IMHO.
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    Default Re: Date an F4 by Handel tuners?

    I wish people would limit conversions to instruments with crashed tops and broken necks. There are enough good f-hole mandolins being made today.

    Bill Monroe didn't chop nearly as much as some folks think he did.

    I've heard an A-4 set up with a 1921 style aluminum top adjustable bridge [which is something that you can make, by the way] that will chop as well as a good F-5.

    I wish mrbarretone many happy hours with his F-4.

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