Should I spend money on powered monitors or new mains?

[dang]

There was a recent thread on monitors that got me thinking; the last time I played live I didn't really have any monitoring options with the little PA setup I put together. It was fine since it was a small indoor show, but I want more flexibility.

Powered monitors turn out to be pretty expensive!

I have 2 of the QSC K10 powered speakers that I am currently using for mains. Should I keep using these as mains and buy powered monitors? Or should I dedicate the QSC K10s to monitor use and buy new mains?

I only have the Allen and Heath Zed 10 mixer, and I don't really play loud venues very much. Flexibility is something I value about this setup, quick, easy and lots of little options... and I would like the option of hearing myself!

Thanks in advance,

Dan G.

[MontanaMatt]

My band switched to wireless in ear monitors eight years ago, and it was a great decision. Any time we are forced to use stage wedges we notice how superior i.e.m. is. It is more money, but the control and detail is worth it. We use Sennheiser.

[vince f]

My 2 cents. I have not played with in ear, but we do have monitors, and they are invaluable especially at shows with lots of crowd noise (bars). I think the QSCs are a bit of overkill quality wise for monitors. If you find that your mains are not big/loud enough, then by all means, buy something bigger, and retire the QSCs to monitor use. If the QSCs are always enough for the mains, then JBL eon (610 or equivalent), yamaha powered, or even the Alto units are probably plenty good for monitors. If you realy do smallish shows, even 8" monitors would do the trick.

We go without monitors for smaller quieter gigs by just positioning the speakers a bit behind us. In larger or louder crowds, we use the monitors.

one thing to consider, PA gear is heavy, setup is time consuming, I am in the process of trying to simplify. We play some loud bar gigs, so in addition to monitors, we need graphic EQ on the main and monitors. A real time analyser app to find the offending feedback frequencies. A multieffects to add some depth to the vocals (gives a much more pro sound) I am now looking to ditch all of it to get a digital mixer with effects and feedback management built in (Soundcraft UI16). I just need to lighten our load.

[pops1]

We play at a bar with a house system, they have a monitor, but I don't like the sound of it. They also have a Fishman mini and I take the monitor signal, pre, and go into the back of the mini, it is a much better sound. I prefer the sound of smaller speakers for acoustic instruments. I like an 8", but your QSC 10" should be great mains and I wouldn't change that. Monitors don't have to be loud, it helps a great deal to have the high, which are directional, coming back at you. You will get plenty of the lows below 250 cycles and the mini gives clean sound to the vocals, guitar and mandolin. What more can you ask. Fiddle and banjo will also work well, bass should be able to be heard from the PA or a separate small bass amp. I like the monitors to be loud enough to hear, but not be able to tell where the sound is coming from. In other words if you can tell it's coming from the monitor it may be louder than you need it. Just my opinion and I am sure there will be other valid opinions.

[dang]

.... I think the QSCs are a bit of overkill quality wise for monitors. If you find that your mains are not big/loud enough, then by all means, buy something bigger, and retire the QSCs to monitor use. If the QSCs are always enough for the mains, then JBL eon (610 or equivalent), yamaha powered, or even the Alto units are probably plenty good for monitors. If you realy do smallish shows, even 8" monitors would do the trick.

...

It’s not that I don’t like the QSC K10s it just seems like I can get a heck of a lot of speaker for the price of some powered monitors. And then I could have the flexibility of using either set of speakers if I wanted. Maybe I am just looking at too expensive monitors. I bought the QSCs and my Allen and Heath mixer and my little feedback inhibitor (that I can’t recall the name of) based off of recommendations here, and I still feel like those were great purchases. I am waiting for the right time to get a digital mixer, not much gigging right now, but I hope to be using my PA more soon... monitors seem essential if I can get a little bigger gigs.

Thanks for the input, I would consider any suggestions!

[banjoboy]

You should check out the alto t x series of speakers. I had some tx8 and they were really good monitors. You can get volume and Clarity out of them. I later. Some QSC 8 speakers. They are very good as well, but they are more expensive. If I had to do it all over again, I'm not sure if I would have bought the QSC monitors.

[Br1ck]

This is for solo shows or maybe a duo or trio?

You could get an acoustic amplifier, run a mic in one channel, an instrument in another, XLR output to PA and you are good to go.

[Mandoplumb]

You can buy cheaper powered monitors if that’s the way you want to go. Sound quality and low noise is not what you need in a monitor you just need to boost certain things not hear a concert. Most bands spend too much time and too much money on too much monitor. The least you can get by with the better and if you work at it you can just about eliminate them IMHO

[almeriastrings]

The Alto TX8's are a very decent monitor for such purposes....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...ead.php?131448

Keep the QSC's as mains. They're outstanding.

[Chip Stewart]

I would keep the K10 powered speakers as the mains and buy 8 inch powered speakers to use as monitors (unless the K10s are not sufficient as mains). For acoustic type work, 10 inch powered speakers seemed too big and obtrusive to be used as monitors. I use Yamaha MSR100 (8 inch) powered speakers and they aren't really noticed. They are also plenty loud enough for what I need.

[TonyP]

I agree with Mandoplumb and with a lot said here. Everybody is different and I'm one of those people who hate to play without monitors. But I play with guys who almost don't seem to like them,or can't hear them. It somehow crosswires them. Me, playing without monitors feels like groping in the dark. I loved my lo buck wired IEM's using a studio headphone amp, but the rest of the guys hated it.

What I ended up doing was getting a couple of little Mackie TRM 150's and mounting them on the same speaker stands with mains, turned around aimed at the band. They are only 5 1/2" speakers and have them setup for high pass so nothing under 1k goes to the monitors. Just loud enough to drown out whatever is slapping back from the walls. Next time you setup and are playing tracks through the mains and standing behind the speakers, listen. You can hear all the bass and lo mids. They radiate omni directional from the cabinet. Not so the mids and highs. So there is no need for big monitors,they only add weight and mud to the mix and that lo feedback. I also went digital mixer and hope I never have to go back. Whole rack of gear all in one little mixer, and no more feedback or even having to ring the system. YMMV.

[dang]

This is for solo shows or maybe a duo or trio?

You could get an acoustic amplifier, run a mic in one channel, an instrument in another, XLR output to PA and you are good to go.

Yes, duo/trio mostly. I have a bunch of little add ons if I need to make it for a 4 piece, like and acoustic amplifier and a bass amplifier with a 12" (or was it 15"?) speaker, and some other toys like a 36 channel EQ and mic preamp and an assortment of (cheaper) mics if I really need a workout carrying all that gear.

You can buy cheaper powered monitors if that’s the way you want to go. Sound quality and low noise is not what you need in a monitor you just need to boost certain things not hear a concert. Most bands spend too much time and too much money on too much monitor. The least you can get by with the better and if you work at it you can just about eliminate them IMHO

Ok, this makes sense to me, and others reaffirm... I knew you all would set me straight!

The Alto TX8's are a very decent monitor for such purposes....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...ead.php?131448

Keep the QSC's as mains. They're outstanding.

Thanks Andy, I don't recall that thread, but always appreciate your reviews.

...What I ended up doing was getting a couple of little Mackie TRM 150's and mounting them on the same speaker stands with mains, turned around aimed at the band. They are only 5 1/2" speakers and have them setup for high pass so nothing under 1k goes to the monitors. Just loud enough to drown out whatever is slapping back from the walls. Next time you setup and are playing tracks through the mains and standing behind the speakers, listen. You can hear all the bass and lo mids. They radiate omni directional from the cabinet. Not so the mids and highs. So there is no need for big monitors,they only add weight and mud to the mix and that lo feedback. I also went digital mixer and hope I never have to go back. Whole rack of gear all in one little mixer, and no more feedback or even having to ring the system. YMMV.

This seems to fit with what I really want them for, I found vocal harmonies really difficult without some sort of reference point, I felt my buddy and I butchered the first song of our set until we moved about 3 feet closer to each other. And it seems like we should only be that close when we do single mic style and monitors aren't needed

Thanks for all the replies, I will put some of the money I save towards a my mandola/octave mando/tenor banjo fund... and start a digital mixer fund... I love it how it never ends!

Dan G.

[dang]

Alto TX-8 $129 on Amazon, with free 2 day shipping (from being a prime member). Now all I need is a gig Saturday!

Thanks again everyone,
Dan

[almeriastrings]

I think you'll find the TX-8's quite impressive. Obviously in a side-by-side A-B shoot-out something like the QSC K8's or K10's is better, but for monitors, they have quite enough power (unless you are playing with crazy loud rock bands) and the simple operation and light weight is a real benefit. The CLARITY is good and the radiation pattern well-controlled. I also have some quite expensive co-axial monitors... but they are a lot heavier and frankly, the TX-8's get the job done more than adequately.

[Charlieshafer]

And just a final exclamation point, especially echoing what Tony P said, in most acoustic situations, with the sort of instruments we all play, it's really just the details from the highs that you need for effective monitoring. The old rock and roll "blast me with everything so I can get in the groove" way doesn't work for acoustics. I've gone all the way down to little 4 inch orbs (satellite speakers intended for home theater) and musicians love them, all the precise, clear detail, no muddiness, and no ear fatigue.

[Mandoplumb]

A lot of our “need” for monitors is habit. When we went to one mic, I could feed a little into monitors but it made it more difficult to ring out the system I decided to go without. Just like TonyP said it sounded flat, then I thought when we jam out in the parking lot there is no monitors, it’s just in my mind that if I’m “performing” I need monitors so I got used to playing without them. We are a four piece band gathered around one mic, even in fairly noisily places we don’t need monitors. I can see how larger bands spread way out might need them but I still think they are way overdone and overrated.

[Tim Griffin]

And just a final exclamation point, especially echoing what Tony P said, in most acoustic situations, with the sort of instruments we all play, it's really just the details from the highs that you need for effective monitoring. The old rock and roll "blast me with everything so I can get in the groove" way doesn't work for acoustics. I've gone all the way down to little 4 inch orbs (satellite speakers intended for home theater) and musicians love them, all the precise, clear detail, no muddiness, and no ear fatigue.

I like to use the small Mackie MX-150s that mount to the mic stand for vocal and acoustic instrument monitoring. Easy for the user to control and they aren’t big and boomy.

[jefflester]

I like to use the small Mackie MX-150s that mount to the mic stand for vocal and acoustic instrument monitoring. Easy for the user to control and they aren’t big and boomy.

SRM150

http://mackie.com/products/srm150

[almeriastrings]

A lot of our “need” for monitors is habit. When we went to one mic, I could feed a little into monitors but it made it more difficult to ring out the system I decided to go without. Just like TonyP said it sounded flat, then I thought when we jam out in the parking lot there is no monitors, it’s just in my mind that if I’m “performing” I need monitors so I got used to playing without them. We are a four piece band gathered around one mic, even in fairly noisily places we don’t need monitors. I can see how larger bands spread way out might need them but I still think they are way overdone and overrated.

It very much depends on the acoustic environments you are performing in. If you can manage without them, fine. Some venues and some performers really do need them, however. They can certainly be over-used....I tend to use them quite 'gently' just pushing enough sound out so that you hear enough to keep time with other players, etc. Getting a really good monitor mix makes a big difference in 'difficult' rooms.

[Brian Harris]

I read about the drawbacks of IEMs but boy... everyone is using them. So this complaint of feeling "isolated" from the other musicians must not bother most. I noticed Thile is always wearing them on Prairie Home Companion.

We have a powered wedge just for vocal and a little bass. Some of the markets we plan outdoors are noisy and, when outside, you don't have any stage volume bouncing back at you.

[almeriastrings]

I read about the drawbacks of IEMs but boy... everyone is using them. So this complaint of feeling "isolated" from the other musicians must not bother most.

You can use an omnidirectional 'ambient' mic as part of the IEM mix. That really helps with the isolation problem.

IEM's have upsides and downsides.... cost is one downside. Cheap ones tend to be horrible and equipping a band with good ones is quite an investment.

As a rough guide including TX, RX and ear buds, allow roughly $1,200 - $2,000 per person + you'll need a mixer with sufficient AUX outputs and good EQ for each of them...

Then, some people love them and get on great with them, others hate 'em...

[Dave Simmons]

As an option you might check out the JBL EON 1 system, it is a "stick", like the Bose system only much less expensive. We replaced out entire PA system with one for a Beatles 60's rock band, plenty loud even for an electric band such as ours with a drummer, and the sound is crystal clear. The original PA system we had was a rack mount system through Mackie mains and Electro voice monitors, there is no real comparison for us, the entire JBL system weighs about the same as """one""" main or monitor and there are no speaker stands needed. The cool thing about this system is the sounds comes from the middle behind you, and you need no monitors because quite literally you are "in" the mix, you hear exactly what the audience hears...and best of all, the entire JBL system costs about the same as a pair of mains or monitors...the ease and speed of set up and tear down is profound.

[TonyP]

And just a final exclamation point, especially echoing what Tony P said, in most acoustic situations, with the sort of instruments we all play, it's really just the details from the highs that you need for effective monitoring. The old rock and roll "blast me with everything so I can get in the groove" way doesn't work for acoustics. I've gone all the way down to little 4 inch orbs (satellite speakers intended for home theater) and musicians love them, all the precise, clear detail, no muddiness, and no ear fatigue.

Everything I have is self powered so I don't have any separate amps to power something like orbs but I have a spare set of ESS tweets that I've thought about trying to bodge with some kind of small plate amp. But the 150's keep plugging along and do the job so why fix what ain't broke yet? I got the concept of just adding hi's for a monitor mix here on the Cafe years ago and never looked back. I'm sure Charlie I would be in total sonic bliss if we played through your system.

Mandoplumb every acoustic band I've ever played in we have practiced in a circle. The folks I seem to play with have been doing the "rock n roll" PA forever and they cannot get the hang of one mic and the choreography that goes with it and especially the concept of let one mic do the work. So when you go to separate mic's now there is no way to hear each other because we're in a line. And it also brings up how much we rely on visuals for on the fly mixing. So getting a half circle, separately mic'd with ambient monitors is what has evolved. I've learned the hard way imposing on a band my vision of a PA can cause friction which usually comes out in passive aggressive ways. It's hard but making it work for everybody has always been the bottom line.

My old band has gone to a Bose system with the idea of having it off to the side and rotating enough to hear. For me, it's a disaster. I can't help it, the guy who taught me to play was a tuning and timing nazi. The first gig was on a street aimed across for passers by. The bounce from across the street was AWEFUL and I struggled all night and could never get a groove. The rest of the guys didnt mention it as they are get er done and let's have fun. Don't sweat the details, and bless them that's why I love playing with them. But I know for a fact if we'd had my little monitors we'd have been tight and the beat wouldn't have been a rolling thing.

The last gig was a birthday party for a guy turning 30 with 40 people packed in a wine bar that is a converted gas station in the two car bays. We were smashed in one corner on the back wall and the Bose was in the opposite corner. Truly sonic hell. Couldn't even hear each other much less the Bose. It was bluegrass by Braille. That would have been the perfect time for IEM's, oh well. What was weird was the people in the middle of the garage said they could hear perfectly. I can only imagine what they heard "perfectly". I'm not trying to say there is just one way, just trying to give examples of the different ways and the reasons for them for the lurkers.

[TonyP]

I also keep forgetting to say I wish I had a pair of those QSC 10's for mains instead of my venerable old SRM 450's. But they didn't come to my attention till long after I'd bought the Italian made 450's. And just like other stuff I have it continues to function and sound good even though they weigh a ton. If they ever die though.....

[mandroid]

How big is your truck to haul all that gear?