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Thread: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

  1. #26
    Registered User mandotool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Anybody got a link etc.. to sound or video of Ken's Lute conversion?..

  2. #27
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I think Bill Halsey did Ken's if I recall.
    And you would be correct, pal.


    I called him pal!
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

  3. #28
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    I'm getting a lot of love these days
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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  5. #29
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Another question regarding the total number of Loar's documented, is this one included?
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  6. #30
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Definitely 2 killer Tenor Lute to mandola conversions on Reverb.com...

  7. #31
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by RichieK View Post
    Definitely 2 killer Tenor Lute to mandola conversions on Reverb.com...
    Both apparently owned by the gentleman mentioned above. It appears Ken had a second one done.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  8. #32
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Yo, buddy...
    I can’t get to the tenor lute!
    Never mind, I sorted it out, looks like several pieces are moving on to another owner...
    Time marches on.
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

  9. #33
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    Yo, buddy...
    What have you done with the real Timbofood?
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  10. #34
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by mandotool View Post
    Anybody got a link etc.. to sound or video of Ken's Lute conversion?..
    <Using the Forum to link to an individual that has been permanently banned from the Cafe for unethical dealing violates our posting guidelines. There will be no further warning in regard to this. It would be wise to get the discussion back on track.>
    Last edited by Mandolin Cafe; Nov-12-2017 at 5:35pm. Reason: violates forum posting guidelines

  11. #35

    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The label ink didn't fade? Is that normal?

    Or has the photo been Photoshop-enhanced to bring out detail/contrast so people can read the label better?

    I have no clue, I've only seen (and played for a few minutes) one real Loar in person, back when they were selling for only a few thousand bucks, don't recall what the label looked like.

    I did used to own a bunch of other old instruments from the late 1800s and early 1900s, usually anything regarding a label was faded and/or dusty, not fresh looking.

    But I suppose a Loar kept in a case away from UV light and whatever else makes inks and pigments fade, could result in labels that appear newer for longer than usual?
    Last edited by JL277z; Nov-12-2017 at 8:54pm. Reason: Trying to make quoted picture show up.

  12. #36
    Registered User bluegrasser78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Posted above regarding the Loar Label and looking like a new signature/enhanced by man or computer, maybe? It does look brilliant for the H-5's wear, I'm sure the experts on them could chime in but it's a for sure different looking substance used on the Loars/ other Master Model 20's Gibson's than the stamped serial # ink that was used during and after that were used. That stamped ink really fades over time. I've had a few with the serial # completely gone and lost to history. Bummer. It has to be a different kind of pigment?

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  14. #37
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    What have you done with the real Timbofood?
    He sleeps with the fishes! But, will return in “My Corner, My View”....

    The variation in the ink can (may) be attributes to storage, ink of the period was more fugitive than most modern inks, if the label has been in a closed case, it may well not have faded as much as some others.
    Not claiming this is the case here but, it might just be normal irregularities in the pigment or uneven light fade. I still use a fountain pen from time to time and I have seen pigment variability first hand, this seems a little radical but, that doesn’t raise any flags for me.
    Stamped inks are very different from pen inks this is most likely a dipped desk pen, not even a fountain pen. Ink load in a dipped style pen will often start out much heavier due to initial pressure on the nib.

    (What can I say, I sold art materials for twenty some years!)
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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  16. #38
    Registered User Henry Eagle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    The label ink didn't fade? Is that normal?
    It may be quite normal:
    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/image..._signature.jpg
    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/image...signature2.jpg

    Is this a different fountain pen?
    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/image..._signature.jpg

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  18. #39
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    I think the pen used in the last label that Henry just posted IS a different one from the first two examples he shared.
    Keep in mind, fountain pen points can, and do, wear.
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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  20. #40
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Yes, and while ballpoint pens were available as early as the late 19th century, they weren't really reliable or popular until around WW2 (Briome/Brio)... I could imagine Loar may have tried one out at some time or another, but I'd be surprised if he used them on F-5 labels.
    -- Don

    "It is a lot more fun to make music than it is to argue about it."

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    (plus an assortment of banjos, dobros, guitars and other noisemakers)

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  22. #41

    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    To: bluegrasser78, Timbofood, Henry Eagle, and dhergert:

    Thank you for the label/ink info!

    (I'm thanking you all here in this post, in addition to the usual "Thanks" buttons, because it seems like a lot of people nowadays view this site using "Mobile view" which doesn't show who's been thanked. At least that's how it is here, which is one of the reasons I seldom use the Mobile view but that's another topic.)

  23. #42
    Registered User bluegrasser78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Wow, no clue what Mobile view is-Not even 40 and I still feel like I'm in a time warp! Tech has passed me by or I've just don't care for it that's the truth of the matter! But thanks. Pencil was used a lot for serial#'s pre-Loar right, I've had some but no longer, I recall an F-2 from 1914 I had but can't remember if it was pen or pencil? I could look in the archives I guess.
    I figured roller ball pens were 50's vintage, guess I was wrong, I'd imagine the first ones were rather sloppy.
    Thanks Henry for showing the Loar sigs. with obviously different ink, the certain day's he signed labels he just used what was there!
    Love history speculation or just to speculate back on the future

  24. #43
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    You know Henry, I think they are all different pens. The line weight is different in the first two and the nib shape on the third is much more “reubenesque”. In the first two the line edge is very crisp, possibly a “dipped” pen with a very new “crow quill” style pen.
    The third looks, to me, much more like a fountain pen.

    Roller ball pens came along with the advent of gel type ink. Late 60’s if memory has not left the building...
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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  26. #44
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    I think we can now officially stop discussing Loar. We are down to "What pen did he use?".

    I say this in jest...keep on with the conversation.

    Phil

  27. #45
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    In a past thread I referenced that some very early (prototype?) examples of style 5 instruments seemed to have been photographed with unbound pickguards. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...guard-Anomaly&

    With the unbound guard and single binding what are thoughts this might be an earlier instrument than it says on the dated label. Perhaps one that was made then a label added later when it was finally sold. These were super expensive instruments of the day and mandolas of this quality were probably not too high in demand. It could help explain why no others with this date have popped up.

    Phil

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  29. #46

    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by goaty76 View Post
    I think we can now officially stop discussing Loar. We are down to "What pen did he use?".

    I say this in jest...keep on with the conversation.

    Phil
    Actually, it is pretty good detective work! These techniques are used in the autograph collecting world all the time. Let's say you have a autographed photo of Rudolph Valentino signed in Sharpie.......well, you can be certain that it is fake! (since Valentino died in 1926 and the Sharpie was invented in 1964 --thanks Wikipedia!)

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  31. #47
    Registered User bluegrasser78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    I believe that all aspects no matter how small they seem to some are of major importance when discussing Loar signed instruments! Each one is different in many ways. I'd think the type of ink would qualify but that's me. Just like the FON#'s. Loar sat down on certain dates and well signed labels that went into the finished product AKA "batches" that's what I've been led to believe from reading.

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  33. #48
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Waiting for someone to list "Lloyd Loar's Fountain Pen" in the classifieds.

  34. #49
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Loar was a renaissance man and an early adopter of technology like ball point pens. I still have the one he gave me the last time we met. I could never sell it. He used it to sign the menu where we had dinner that night. He did however stick me with the bill. He had the frogs legs, I had the veal.

    Unfortunately the Loar mystery gives rise to the ability to manufacture Loar memorabilia and questionable instruments and events. Such is life.

    I imagine that the first ball point pens (like the first LED watches) were sought after and expensive before they became mass produced. The first LED watch (Red LED, gold bracelet and bezel) I ever saw was several thousand dollars and on the cutting edge. Within 2 years you could get one free when you bought a cooler.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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  36. #50
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Undocumented Loar? Gibson Style H-5 Mandol

    Your comment about the old LED red display watches is fun for me because I’m a bit of a watch nut, pen nut, paper nut, art material in general, grilling aficionado, smoking devotee, all that kind of stuff.
    I used to work with a guy who was selling that (Bulova, if memory serves) LED watch when first introduced, it had a specially fitted magnet which was needed to set the time! What a monster. I had two customers that had them.
    The new throwaway LCD models are just fine but, I have an analog mind in a digital world!

    How was the veal?
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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