My Level of Incompetence

[MikeEdgerton]

I feel the same way on a daily basis but then I figure no one else takes me serious so why should I.

[Al Trujillo]

For a minute I thought I had entered a WebMD conversation about "incontinence!" ....and I wanted to contribute.

[Astro]

For a minute I thought I had entered a WebMD conversation about "incontinence!" ....and I wanted to contribute.

You can !

DEPENDS ...on whether you consider them half empty or half full ...

[stevedenver]

Keep practicing mindfully
Chose one or two songs to work, and, to sing

Your playing is for your joy, first and foremost.

We all go through seasons.
My last gig.last friday, i hadnt slept well for three nights..i was unhappy with my performance. I tried singing a typically smokin tune, but decided to try laid back.....bad choice, medicocre performance.
I coasted on every solo, arpeggios, diads, trem....simply uninspiring. No humor from me to the audience when i introduced the tune. No digging in on my solos, nada, just polite.

I normally play competently, or at least the right chords, in time, but, it was a rough night, i had no oompf, no mental gas,pick hand losing grip mid set, it bummed me out.

But, im back, and moving forward from my self disappointment.
I think every musician trying to strive for improvement gets a taste of humility.

Set the mando down , start again in a couple of days.

A good instrument helps , it sounds sweet and plays well. It encourages, and removes excuses.
Chin up.

No one gets anywhere without work and, perseverance.

As the sausage says, its only the level of competence, and, its relative.

[Paul Busman]

Just remember, we PLAY the mandolin, we don't WORK it. If you're not having fun, stop doing it for a while or figure out a more enjoyable way to progress.
Me, I'm in no hurry to get to be a terrific player. I pick up an instrument pretty much daily. It might be a mandolin, but it also might be a tenor banjo, tenor guitar (actually an octave mando with only 4 strings), or whistle. I just play whatever comes to mind, any tune,any genre. Sometimes I discover interesting and useful crossover passages spanning genres. If I hit a trouble spot, I'll isolate it and work on it a bit, then move on. When I stop having fun, I quit. I've long accepted the fact that I'll never play like Thile or Grisman and that's OK. I accept what I can and can't do and don't get all stressed out about it.
Funny thing is, bit by bit I am getting better, and enjoying every minute of it.

[pops1]

My instruments are all better than I really need, but I smile when I play them and I enjoy them, and that's what really matters!

I think that is what it is about, having something that sounds good so you want to play it. Skill level doesn't matter, get the best you can and enjoy it. I have always said "you can't drive in the Indy 500 in a Volkswagen".

[Timbofood]

I missed the OP but, I think I get the gist of it’s content.
Paul is voicing my personal take on music, musicians and, musical undertaking in general as I have stated in many of my ramblings.
“It’s called PLAYING music”
I extrapolate that from an old interview with “Doc”Watson, to paraphrase...
“It’s playing, it’s not called working music, when playing music becomes a job for me, I’ll quit.”

[Mike Scott]

Well, as I am the OP and I tried to not even get this thread going, now I suppose I should weigh in. The basic of what had turned into a long diatribe was that I’ve reached a level that at my age I don’t expect to radically improve from so rather than be frustrated and/or intimidated at jams because others are better, I’m jus going to do what I can do and be OK with it. Strangely many of the posters agree....

[Capt. E]

Then there was a comment by my wife recently after working on learning some new chords etc on my A-2: "What were you playing? That music was terrible". Makes me want to find a secret place in the woods to practice.

[Phil Goodson]

......I've never once regretted buying more instrument than I thought I should.
--

Me neither, .... but it could still happen!

Well, as I am the OP........I’ve reached a level that at my age I don’t expect to radically improve from so rather than be frustrated and/or intimidated at jams because others are better, I’m just going to do what I can do and be OK with it. ....

We all are susceptible to the Peter Principle*. Just enjoy!

* The Peter principle is a special case of a ubiquitous observation: Anything that works will be used in progressively more challenging applications until it fails.

[CarlM]

I’ve reached a level that at my age I don’t expect to radically improve from so rather than be frustrated and/or intimidated at jams because others are better, I’m just going to do what I can do and be OK with it.

Pushing harder and trying harder leads to less progress than acceptance of what we can do and making the progress that is in our reach. I sustained a very serious, Django Reinhardt level, left hand injury in the mid 1990s. I could not play at all for about five years due to pain and limited movement. When I started playing guitar again, my attitude was that I would see what I could do and accept that there would always be limitations. By accepting that I physically cannot do what everyone else does and working with what I can do, there are far fewer limitations than expected and have been able to go far beyond where I was before the injury.

There is an old Japanese story about a man who went to a master swordsman to learn the craft. The master told him it would take ten years. He responded that he could not wait that long and he would work his hardest and strive to the utmost. The master said "Oh you will do all that? That is different. In that case it will take 20 years."

[mandroid]

"Music is not a competition!"

I think Pete Seeger said this.

But the Music Business may be competitive , the money is the difference.




...

[Bertram Henze]

There is an old Japanese story about a man who went to a master swordsman to learn the craft. The master told him it would take ten years. He responded that he could not wait that long and he would work his hardest and strive to the utmost. The master said "Oh you will do all that? That is different. In that case it will take 20 years."

This becomes clear in the light of procedural memory vs declarative memory. Its the procedural memory that does the playing because its the fastest and most reliable - but it gives no explanation, takes no commands and can't be rushed. Declarative memory, OTOH, is for the slow tedious thing we call "thinking", and despite being slow it's the one being impatient; it's like a turtle teaching an eagle how to fly: the more it is in control, the less progress is being made.
The best way is to just let procedural memory do what it's best at: learning by repetition and frequent failures, in its own good time.

[JRG]

Mike, No matter your level of incompetence, you can still go out and achieve. I may be calmer than you about this but I'm staying and enjoying my mandolin.

[fatt-dad]

This year's mantra: "on the road to excellence, enjoy mediocrity."

f-d

[stevedenver]

I will add, that if jams bother you with playing anxiety, then, imho, avoid them UNTIL you can go and neutrally observe, participate and enjoy. Freaking out is not conducive to learning. Competition too, in some cases, if you feel overfaced.

This i know first hand, from many performance like situations. At some point, you must feel somewhat anchored, imho, in yourself and what you can do. Its entirely mental, but in instrumental performance, it is all about physical training (procedural memory) and auto response.

That, and the difficult skill, at first, of listening while you play/sing. This is tough for a while, since so much is being processed.


And, there is great joy , for me, in playing at home, too.

Its not an either /or situation. Playing alone and with others, that is.

OP, if youre frustrated, you might consider finding a thoughtful teacher. This can work wonders over six months or so.

After playing mando 6 months, i went to jams several times a week, with a friend. I went to learn, play, and meet folks, knowing i couldnt dazzle. I could hear changes, and i could transpose on the fly. I knew very few bluegrass tunes.

It got a lot better with time and regular participation, and, not caring how badly i F#$%ed up.

The not caring is liberating for creativity, imho.

[Bren]

You can only pick with the hands you have.
Just be the best you that you can be.
Enjoy playing, play often, try to be a tiny bit better each time, when you're in the mood.
Do some pleasure-coasting in between when you're not in the mood.
Find someone on any instrument at the same level.
One day you look back and are surprised at how far you've come.

[Mark Gunter]

Sorry to resurrect this one, and with a somewhat off the topic post, but a couple weeks back when this thread was going, a question arose in my mind about philology - specifically, the etymology of the words "competent" and "compete."

Really, Bob brought it up way back in post #6. I'd never thought about the question of how these two words might be related until I read his post in this context, and I thought I might like to find out the etymology. Obviously, not very pressing, but it came across my mind tonight and I looked them up. I just used a popular etymology website as a reference and I'm not sure how accurate their information is.

competent: https://www.etymonline.com/word/competent
compete: https://www.etymonline.com/word/compete

What I found, according to that site, is that the terms do have a common etymology, and that was no surprise. What was interesting to me is that "competent" has been in English since the late 1300's with the meaning of being "sufficient" or "suitable", and since the 1640's "able" or "fit for a purpose." Only rarely in the 1600's did it carry any notion of "striving" - but that sense was revived in the late 1700's, so that the market sense of "compete" wasn't used until the 1840's and the athletic sense of "compete" wasn't used until the late 1850's.

This may be totally boring to most who read it, but I'm a bit of a word nerd and there are probably others here; anyway, when I strive for competence it has little to do with competing with anyone other than perhaps myself. I think competition in a sense does drive most of the natural world - plants and animals all compete for food, and for survival, etc. And probably the quest to make better music has some competitive element to it, whether a person is interested in a contest of mandolin slinging or not. There is probably always some prize or goal in mind.

Being incompetent is nothing to be ashamed of; neither is the desire of obtaining more competence. Playing music is fun, and playing better at music is more fun. One of my favorite quotes (I don't know who said it) is "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly" - because if you don't start badly, you won't start at all.

[Jess L.]

... What I found, according to that site, is that the terms do have a common etymology, and that was no surprise. What was interesting to me is that "competent" has been in English since the late 1300's with the meaning of being "sufficient" or "suitable", and since the 1640's "able" or "fit for a purpose." Only rarely in the 1600's did it carry any notion of "striving" - but that sense was revived in the late 1700's, so that the market sense of "compete" wasn't used until the 1840's and the athletic sense of "compete" wasn't used until the late 1850's. ...

Fascinating! I love this kind of stuff. I'm not knowledgeable enough to qualify for word-nerd status, but word origins have always intrigued me. (Which reminds me, I still haven't researched why people stopped saying thee and thou, was it some royal decree, or something the peasants started that eventually took over and became the norm? I suspect it might have something to do with the then-newfangled printing press??? Or not? But I digress.)

... when I strive for competence it has little to do with competing with anyone other than perhaps myself. ...

Competing with oneself, yes.

... I think competition in a sense does drive most of the natural world - plants and animals all compete for food, and for survival, etc. ...

True. But there's another angle to consider, and that is: *cooperation* is also a powerful driving element in the natural world. Especially for individual creatures, where a creature's body may have a whole bunch of different parts (organs etc) that do different jobs but they're all acting together in a seemingly non-competitive, well-coordinated, and cooperative manner with the other parts, to further the well-being of the group as a whole.

How does this relate to music? Well...

When I was first starting out playing, as a little kid, it was all about me. Me me me. Me! I wanted to play this instrument, that instrument, all these different instruments. I wanted to copy my musical heroes note-for-note and to try to sound exactly the way they did.

That's a good starting point, a person's gotta start somewhere. I worked really hard at trying to improve my tone, my notes, my timing, everything. Eventually, I got pretty good (for my age) on some of my chosen instruments.

That allowed me to participate in some jams with older musicians who were much much better than me. (They were kind enough to put up with me, even though I wasn't even close to being in their league.)

And that's where the "light bulb moment" was. That was when I realized there's more to music than just being a hotshot player who plays exactly like the heroes or whatever. (This was not bluegrass, there were no 'breaks' or solo stars, the focus was on the *overall* sound, rather than on any one individual sound except for maybe the fiddlers and the occasional singer.) So...

In those jams I was hearing some awesome backing players. I was like, "How do they do that?" What, exactly, are they playing, that makes everyone else sound so good, how do they know which notes to play, and when? I listened my little ears off to learn as much as I could from those people.

It intrigued the heck out of me because, for the first time, I realized that it's not all about competition to cull the bad stuff (ok you need that too when competing with yourself to improve your own playing, gotta be able to recognize problems and fix them), but there's also this whole cooperative angle where everyone works together to make a final sound that sounds better than any one of them playing individually.

I'd heard oldtime string-bands my whole life, but until that moment, I hadn't realize that aspect of how they function. I had thought it was just a matter of being technically proficient. Turns out there is much, much more to it than that. Working together in a NON-competitive way, to further the group objectives of having a great *overall* sound.

The goal being to listen to what's already there, try to figure out what's missing or what it needs, cross off the list any tempting ideas that might sound fine solo but would be unhelpful in a group situtation, (check the "how much can I get away with" category" lol), and figure out how to apply all that to make a better sound.

... And probably the quest to make better music has some competitive element to it, whether a person is interested in a contest of mandolin slinging or not. There is probably always some prize or goal in mind. ...

After my lightbulb moment, my "prize" or reward became those sorta Zen-like awesome moments when the music just all comes together, magic happens, I don't know how to put it into words.

[Eric Platt]

Yup. That's always been my quest, first on bass, then guitar, now mandolin. Make the folks you are playing with sound better. Whether it's a band, a contest or just a jam. Now that I've started occasionally playing guitar backup at fiddle contests, I really do appreciate trying to get it right. Not just for myself, but for the competitor.

Am never going to be a great, or even good, musician. But I'll get by and have fun. Especially our latest band where we are starting to get some nice interplay between the two mandolins. It's what was also great about my prior band. I never wanted the spotlight. Wanted my backup playing to make the other person sound fantastic.

[Astro]

I'm not sure if I'm getting any better either but I can say I can play a lot more stuff. How well I sound might be the same, I'm not sure. But I can certainly play more of it. Is that getting better? For those around me playing more of it may be worse. Who knows? Then again if I hadnt learned more stuff I'd just be playing the same thing over and over and I think that would be worse for them.

Certainly no one runs up to me and says they were blown away and I should be famous because I'm so good. But they do seem to listen sometimes and dont tell me to move or quit (family excepted of course). In fact when I play out solo more often than not I get a few claps.

So I'm not sure I'm getting better but I am becoming more tolerant of hearing myself.

Not that that is a good or bad thing necessarily. But it sustains the process.

[Timbofood]

Yes indeed Mark, BIG difference between competent and competitive! I may be one but not so much the other.

[Mark Wilson]

Heading into year five and I don't know if I'm getting any better. The more I play the higher the 'sounds better' bar rises whether I want it to or not. So in a sense the more I play the worse I think I sound

I've definitely had to change my practice efforts to improve. I reached a point where just playing tunes every night kept me in same place. It takes a fair amount of purposeful attention to small things for me to improve now. Some or most of that is not as fun as just playing tunes.

Also I have an idiot for a teacher so there's that to deal with...

[Bertram Henze]

...and I should be famous because I'm so good.

Fame is a punishment out of proportion for a minor offence like that, IMHO. Only anonymity truly enables you to...

"...walk the streets of paradise, head high and unashamed."
(James Plunkett, Strumpet City)

[Kip Carter]

I opted to embrace my incompetence and just purchased “Mandolin for Dummies” by Don Julin.

My thought is to rewind to the beginning and properly fill in the holes I’ve ran roughshod over in my Mandolin journey. Likely will scour the book, master the content to a reasonable level then seek out some professional council.

Some would say I going about it in reverse, but I am going about it nonetheless!

Blessings,
Kip