What to do? Modify or replace.

[FatBear]

I have a Big Muddy mandolin. This is a flat topped instrument. It is well made, though not fancy and is something of a cross between a guitar and a mandolin. I really like the sound and the resonance and so on. I do not play bluegrass. (Nothing against it, but it's a band genre and I'm too independent for that.)

But one thing is bothering me. As my abilities have improved, I find myself playing farther up the neck and when I get above the 12th fret the E and to a lesser extent the A strings sort of damp out. They plink like a high piano key rather than ring like some nice (and very expensive) mandolins I've heard. I want that ringing sound.

I considered buying a different mandolin, but I live in a mandolin desert where it is very hard to impossible to go try other instruments. And I suspect that mandolins in my price range (below $1800) would have some other problem. This has been partly confirmed by two sellers in the last couple of weeks. One actually drove down from LA (he had someone to visit down here, anyway) and brought three mandolins for me to try out. Two were for sale, one he was keeping. They all had something going for them, but they all lacked something, too. Another guy made me a video of a very nice sounding A-50, but it lacked the resonance that I've come to like in mine.

So I thought maybe I can do something to improve my really high notes without harming the rest of the sound. It occurred to me that the active top of my instrument is a lot bigger than an f-hole instrument. Maybe the A and E strings just don't have enough energy to drive the big top for very long. And maybe I can do something about that.

First thing I tried was heavier A and E strings because that was easy and I happened to have some around. That resulted in two things. First, they both lost some volume and some resonance in the first position. Second, they gained a tiny bit more ring (sustain?) above the 12th fret. So I have to hit them harder, but I did gain a little.

Now it occurs to me that I have a Taylor guitar. This is a flat topped guitar with a big soundboard. And it rings all the way up to the last fret on the high E string. Yes, I know that's still probably an octave lower than the high notes on my mandolin, but it's also a much bigger top. So it is obviously possible to have what I want in a flat topped instrument.

What do you suppose I can do to make my high notes ring out better? Bridge changes? Shaving braces? I will be doing this myself as I don't have the budget to engage a luthier to experiment for me even if there was one around here who knew anything about mandolins. (Though maybe a guitar luthier might actually have more insight into this situation on a flat-topped instrument?)

I am using a Cumberland Acoustics adjustable bridge. I switched to this when I was moving from very humid to very dry and back every year. Prior to that I had two fixed bridges, both of which I had done the height adjustments on myself. Will lightening the bridge help? Or lightening just the treble side? (I like my bass how it is.) Or what about switching back to the solid bridges? I do remember drilling a bunch of holes in one of those and didn't like what I heard, though I don't remember why. Perhaps only lightening the treble side?

I've also changed most hardware on two mandolins, both of which required moving holes and one of which required moving the holes for the tuners! All has gone well so far. I've also built houses, fountains (yes, professionally), and model ships, so I am pretty handy.

I am not inclined, though, to take my mandolin apart or to make unalterable changes to it unless I am sure they will improve and not degrade the sound.

Is there anything else I should consider? Or am I totally off on the wrong track? Be honest, I can take it. :-)

Thanks.

[Tavy]

Is there anything else I should consider? Or am I totally off on the wrong track? Be honest, I can take it. :-)

I suspect you may be off track - here's the thing - it's really quite hard to get really good clean notes high up the neck. So before looking at the instrument, I would look at both technique, and possibly fret wire size and general setup.

That said, there's no question that instruments do vary - and you are correct that most sound kind of "ordinary" when played very high up. Actually most sound kind of ordinary on the e string full stop! There are a few that beat the trend - in fact possibly the only mandolin I've played that didn't have a fall off in tone and volume no matter how far up you went was a teens Gibson F4. Even that instrument was imperfect, in that it was actually a little "too much" very high up, so your mileage may vary...

[CES]

You may want to give Mike Dulac a call or send him an email with your questions. As the guy who built it, he may have more insight than the rest of us.

Fwiw, tone up the neck is one of my evaluation criteria when I’m considering new mandolins. Thus far, I’d say it’s only the top tier instruments that manage to achieve ideal tone up there. My Silverangel is an awesome mandolin, but loses a little up there. Eastman 315 is a very good mando, esp for the price, but loses a little up the neck. My Flatiron 1N does the same. I remember Chris Thile felling similarly about his Dude, hence his move to Loars.

Not trying to be a downer at all, just my experience. I love all of the mandolins listed above, and, honestly haven’t found anything below 6 grand that’s made me consider parting with the SA, so mean no disrespect to Ken, Eastman, or Flatiron. See what Mike says, and go from there...

[pops1]

A guitar at the 12th fret has about as much vibrating string length left as a mandolin playing an open string. I realize not quite, but you get the idea. Even a piano gets plinky sounding in the high keys, short strings don't ring out like longer strings. While I do play past the 12th fret, it is so seldom that I am not worried about the sound. My mandolin is a great sounding mandolin, but it is so rare I play there that I would not look for another instrument for less than one percent of my playing time. YMMV

[FatBear]

I can easily believe that it is technique. But I've seen a recording of a very good player hitting that last high note to end his song while demonstrating a Big Muddy mandolin and it goes plink, too. So there might be some of both instrument and technique involved.

If it is a problem of technique, how would I learn to improve it? I've tried holding the pick in different ways. Straight, angled. Tried hitting the strings and brushing over them. I use a Blue Chip pick. Triangular, I think it's .055". Would heavier or lighter help?

Fret wire size is very interesting to me and I was considering a separate post to ask about it. I once played a 1937 A00 that was just a dream to play. It was so easy it almost played itself. I've been envious of that every since. It had weird frets on it, but I don't know what kind. Of course it could have been unrelated to the frets, but that was just the most obvious difference I could see.

I know I've seen mentions of different fret heights and different materials, but I don't know where to go to see an overall treatise on fret wires. Is higher or lower easier to play? How does the height affect the sound? And I what about different fret materials? Does that affect the sound or just how long their wear?

Thanks,

[FatBear]

YMMV

Yes. My mileage does vary. Two of my favorite songs have phrases that go up there. The "problem" is more pronounced above the 12th fret, but I think that's more of an indicator. It's acceptable below, but I think if I can make it sound nice above the 12th, it will also sound nicer below.

[FatBear]

You may want to give Mike Dulac a call or send him an email with your questions. As the guy who built it, he may have more insight than the rest of us.

Thanks, I'll give it a try.

Fwiw, tone up the neck is one of my evaluation criteria when I’m considering new mandolins. Thus far, I’d say it’s only the top tier instruments that manage to achieve ideal tone up there.

There are two parts to the cost of those really expensive mandolins: extravagent materials and the time required to perfect them. Materially, my mandolin is made of clear, straight-grained black walnut, clear spruce, clear mahogany (neck), and clear ebony (fretboard and peghead.) These are tonally good quality woods, but are plain, with not figuring. I don't care about that stuff.

Time-wise: my mandolin cost $525, new, in 2011, from a music store. They got a markup, so it is obvious that Mike could not possibly have spent the time to fine tune and perfect the sound. It would never have occurred to me that he should for that price. He designed and built a very good mandolin for the price and I am totally happy with my purchase. I am almost totally happy with the sound, too. There's just this one little thing that I'd like to improve. I figure that if I put my time into it, maybe I can do so. Having looked around and read the posts here, it seems unlikely that I'll find a better sounding instrument without paying a divorce-inducing amount of money.

[Br1ck]

Have you ever had the frets leveled? You may be getting a minis clue amount of contact up there.

[colorado_al]

Tremolo

[fscotte]

Removing stiffness from the top may cause you to lose high string tone. The less stiff the top becomes, the thinner the E string sounds - generally speaking of course. A nice stiff yet light top will give you volume while keeping tone. The mando doesn't have much sustain to begin with, so it's not so much about sustain as it is about shaping the tone for that short soundwave each course of strings make. IME, a floppy (plates not stiff enough) mando has nice loud bass notes (even tubby) and a good chop, but really die out on the higher strings. Good coupling between the plates is what gives a nice balanced tone.

[sblock]

Acquiring a better mandolin will almost certainly give you access to a more bell-like, ringing tone to the highest notes. But there are practical limits. No acoustic mandolin on this planet produces very much sustain at the top end of its range. This is because a short string under high tension becomes very stiff, and it experiences not much excitation in the first place, plus a whole lot of damping. The physics is against you.

That said, unless you manage to get very lucky, you would probably need to spend significantly more than $2000 to find a mandolin with much sustain in the high end. The best mandolins tend to be rather lightweight but carefully built, teetering near the brink of mechanical disaster, with thin -- but rigid -- tops and artful bracing and tuning. Lesser instruments, by and large, are more robustly built, with generally thicker tops, but they cannot provide much sustain to those high notes.

[JeffD]

I can easily believe that it is technique. But I've seen a recording of a very good player hitting that last high note to end his song while demonstrating a Big Muddy mandolin and it goes plink, too. So there might be some of both instrument and technique involved.

Mine doesn't. It sounds great and authoritative all the way up the neck.

If it is a problem of technique, how would I learn to improve it? I've tried holding the pick in different ways. Straight, angled. Tried hitting the strings and brushing over them. I use a Blue Chip pick. Triangular, I think it's .055". Would heavier or lighter help?

If it is a problem of technique that explains this, I would think it is more likely your left hand. Enough pressure? Good finger and finger tip placement? Play around a bit and see what might work better.

Fret wire size is very interesting to me and I was considering a separate post to ask about it.

I doubt that has anything to do with the problem at hand. It is an interesting topic however. The luthiers amongst us can respond better than I can.

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with shlock. You said that you tried a couple different mandolins and each had some issue. We are all trying to find the perfect mandolin and to my knowledge no one has. Some of us including me have found a life keeper but if we are honest there is some little issue we would change if we could. It's just as close to "perfect" as we've found or expect to. The perfect mandolin with no issue just doesn't exist and if it does you won't buy it for no amount of money.

[FatBear]

Have you ever had the frets leveled? You may be getting a minis clue amount of contact up there.

I have not. Do you mean that the contact with the high frets might be insufficient to get a clear note?

[Marty Jacobson]

I have not. Do you mean that the contact with the high frets might be insufficient to get a clear note?

That could definitely be a contributing factor. It's not insufficient contact, it's frets which are sticking above the plane of the adjacent frets, creating at worst a sitar-like buzzing, or at best a dramatic loss of sound without you noticing that it's happening.

[FatBear]

A nice stiff yet light top will give you volume while keeping tone.

How would one achieve that on an already built one?

The mando doesn't have much sustain to begin with, so it's not so much about sustain as it is about shaping the tone for that short soundwave each course of strings make. IME, a floppy (plates not stiff enough) mando has nice loud bass notes (even tubby) and a good chop, but really die out on the higher strings. Good coupling between the plates is what gives a nice balanced tone.

Mine is a flat top and has lots of sustain over most of the fretboard. I said my problem is lack of sustain at the high end of the high strings, but I'm not sure that's the truly correct word for it. It doesn't "ring". I just assume that means a lack of sustain.

Don't care about chop. I doubt I've ever chopped three chords in a row. :-)

[FatBear]

I agree with shlock. You said that you tried a couple different mandolins and each had some issue. We are all trying to find the perfect mandolin and to my knowledge no one has. Some of us including me have found a life keeper but if we are honest there is some little issue we would change if we could. It's just as close to "perfect" as we've found or expect to. The perfect mandolin with no issue just doesn't exist and if it does you won't buy it for no amount of money.

So I shouldn't even try? That would not be me. Besides, I bet most people playing more conventional arch top mandolins would think mine far from perfect. I have adapted my ear and my style (if I have one) and my "repertoire" and my expectations a great deal to this mandolin. It is not an extension of my fingers or of my being or anything like that, but I've come to like a lot about it. I just want to improve one thing. Please allow me to try.

[FatBear]

I would think it is more likely your left hand. Enough pressure? Good finger and finger tip placement? Play around a bit and see what might work better.

Have done that. A lot. I'm doing it now with the new, heavier strings. As I said, there is a small improvement, but not much.

[sblock]

Actually, 'sustain' and 'ring' can have subtly different meanings. Defining sustain is fairly easy: it's the length of time that a note persists after it's struck, usually by a pick. The volume of the note decays away (usually, exponentially fast) over time. Heavier (more massive) strings, and also longer string lengths, tend to give more sustain. Thinner (less massive) and shorter strings (e.g., when fretted!) carry less sustain. Mandolin strings are under high tension, too, and that tends to reduce the sustain, as well. Sustain is also killed by greater damping.

Ring can certainly be used as a synonym for sustain, as in the expression "that note rang out for quite a time." But many folks also use the word ring to indicate certain quality to the timbre of the note, meaning that it sounds more 'pure' (with fewer harmonic overtones) and 'bell-like' (ditto).

Notes played high up the neck on a mandolin NEVER carry much in the way of sustain! This is not merely a question of playing technique (although insufficient fretting pressure can make it less). It is associated with the physics of the instrument, and that's not fixable.

However, notes played high up the neck on a mandolin can, indeed, 'ring', in the sense that they carry a purer tone and can manage to sound better on some mandolins than on others. This depends on the instrument, and the better mandolins do tend to have notes that sound better up the neck, even if they don't last as long as the notes played lower down -- because they don't!

[FatBear]

Acquiring a better mandolin will almost certainly give you access to a more bell-like, ringing tone to the highest notes.

And lose me the low end, the drones, the resonance, etc. I could buy a Pava or a Collings. I've seen them barely under $2000. But the Pava I listened to sounded like a great bluegrass mandolin which would be of no use to me.

But there are practical limits. No acoustic mandolin on this planet produces very much sustain at the top end of its range. This is because a short string under high tension becomes very stiff, and it experiences not much excitation in the first place, plus a whole lot of damping. The physics is against you.

And yet, the sound I would like to hear does exist. In both arch topped mandolins and flat topped guitars. (Can't say I've listened to enough flat top mandolins to be able to say the same or not.) I may fail to achieve it, but I'd like to try. Even if I fall short, I may make improvements.

The best mandolins tend to be rather lightweight but carefully built, teetering near the brink of mechanical disaster, with thin -- but rigid -- tops and artful bracing and tuning. Lesser instruments, by and large, are more robustly built, with generally thicker tops, but they cannot provide much sustain to those high notes.

So if one were to lighten the bracing on the treble side, would that give me more sustain on the treble strings? Or if I lighten the treble side of the bridge? I was even thinking about sort of narrowing the center of the base part of the bridge so just an isthmus remains to connect the bass and treble sides; thinking that would give the higher strings less bridge to have to wiggle. Is there anyone out there who can comment on these things?

[FatBear]

Actually, 'sustain' and 'ring' can have subtly different meanings....

Excellent. Yes, I was unsure about the exact meaning of the terms and that's a good explanation. It's the ring that I want. I want my string to go PING instead of PLINK. Maybe sustain isn't exactly what I'm after, but how do I get the PING? As I said earlier, one of the biggest differences between less and more expensive mandolins is the amount of labor put into making the better ones better. Can I apply my own labor to make the improvement that I wish to see?

[fscotte]

Not that I suggest you do this. But a clever technique to stiffen a top for experimental purposes is to glue a transverse brace to the outside of the top. A piece of masking tape to protect the finish would go on first, then fashion the brace to perfectly fit to the top. On an F-hole mando I put the brace directly in front of the bridge spanning from one f-hole to the other.

All that will do is tell you if a stiffer top would improve tone.

[FatBear]

I'd kind of hate to mar the finish, but I wonder if there's some other way I can think of to accomplish this. What if I glued the stiffener to the masking tape? Would it couple adequately across the thickness of the paper to make a good test or would it be a waste of time?

[colorado_al]

I don't think you are going to coax a different tone out of your mandolin on the highest frets. You need to just see it as a limitation of this instrument.
Go play some other mandolins and you can compare them and see if any have what you're looking for.

[Mandoplumb]

So I shouldn't even try? That would not be me. Besides, I bet most people playing more conventional arch top mandolins would think mine far from perfect. I have adapted my ear and my style (if I have one) and my "repertoire" and my expectations a great deal to this mandolin. It is not an extension of my fingers or of my being or anything like that, but I've come to like a lot about it. I just want to improve one thing. Please allow me to try.

No I don't mean you shouldn't try. I drilled the bridge of a cheep mandolin so much that while it helped it for a short time it collapsed in a few days. Do anything and everything that may help and enjoy it if it does, also if something does help it significantly be sure and let us know. Just remember that no mandolin is "perfect" so don't become so concerned with making it so to the extent that you can't enjoy it's strong points. Remember this musical journey is supposed to be fun!