Disobeying the tuner: gotta crank the A a little higher

[Tate Ferguson]

I posted several months ago about the A course being the hardest to tune and to play in tune. Still buggin' me! When I play scalar material, the whole g__d___ string sounds flat. Bridge is positioned as best I can, strings are new-ish.

Things are a little better when I use the electronic tuner on all four courses, then crank the A course marginally higher, infinitesimally higher than the tuner's reading.

Maybe it's best to regard the Snark as an opinion, not a directive.

Or get a compensated nut, or a custom-intonated bridge, or... hahaha

[colorado_al]

I'd have your setup checked. It sounds to me like your bridge compensation isn't correct. 1st, make sure that the nut is cut correctly and that all the strings are exiting the nut at the same area. If they are, then you may be able to fix your bridge by setting it where the A string intonates correctly and then filing down the fronts of the other string spots until they intonate correctly. If it is too far off, then perhaps a new bridge.
What instrument are you playing? Who did your setup? Pictures? Bridge and nut

[Ivan Kelsall]

On my Weber or Lebeda,whether i use my Snark tuner or my Polytune,after tuning the G/D & A strings,my E strings still need to be tuned a few cents higher to be in tune with the A strings fretted at the 7th fret. It's so little as to be unnoticeable.

From the OP - "or a custom-intonated bridge.." . My Ellis with one of Tom Ellis's own make of bridge,compensated for the GHS A270's that he recommends & that i use,is 100% spot on.

If i had such issues,i'd maybe have the mandolin looked at by a decent luthier to discover what's really happening. Those guys can see in seconds what we don't see at all !,
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with all the post but TEF made one valid point. An electric is a tool not a dictator. I have seen people say that string sounds flat but the tuner says it’s right. If it sounds out of tune TUNE it whatever the tool says.

[AlanN]

Oh yes, the A strings are a bear to tune. Listen to Mike Marshall's solo on Ride The Wild Turkey, off Darol Anger's Fiddlistics. Clearly, the A strings are out. Didn't them boys hear that? A noted mandolinist tells me he spends no less than 1 hour in the studio to get the A strings right.

[Tobin]

Bridge is positioned as best I can

How are you setting your bridge? In other words, do you set your intonation by the outer courses of strings (i.e. G and E courses)? If this is giving you problems with intonation on the A strings, try adjusting your bridge position using the G and A courses instead and see if it works any better.

[Willie Poole]

This same thing has bugged me for years so now I tune the G, D and E strings according to the tuner and then tune the A string so that the tuner says it is on at the 5th fret like Ivan said he does at the 7th fret, the B and C notes will show a tad sharp using the tuner but not many people will hear them because they aren`t that far off, I try not to go too far up the neck on the A string...I still believe there has to be a correct A string gauge that will correct all of this, after all the other strings intonate OK...

Willie

[chuck3]

This is all so true about the A string. Why is this so (from a physics viewpoint)? All the strings are tuned in 5ths, why should one course be different from the other three with respect to tune-ability?

[SincereCorgi]

Oh yes, the A strings are a bear to tune. Listen to Mike Marshall's solo on Ride The Wild Turkey, off Darol Anger's Fiddlistics. Clearly, the A strings are out. Didn't them boys hear that? A noted mandolinist tells me he spends no less than 1 hour in the studio to get the A strings right.

Who? It's not a harp! Are they paying for that studio time?

[jesserules]

Seems the A strings on a mandolin are like the B string on a guitar? Impossible to get 100% perfect due to the nature of fretted instruments?

[Mark Gunter]

Seems the A strings on a mandolin are like the B string on a guitar? Impossible to get 100% perfect due to the nature of fretted instruments?

I think your last sentence actually applies to all strings on a fretted instrument, due to equal temperament tuning ... but it's probably the best compromise.

Why is the mandolin A course such a beech? (nuts)? I don't know, maybe we'll hear more theories besides the one Willie Poole already suggests. I know they give me all kinds of trouble all the time.

On guitars, I've had some trouble with B string, also often have trouble with the G string on many guitars. One obvious thing is that the B on acoustic guitar is the plain string right next a wound string, as is the A course on mandolin. They require compensation, and then there is already the compromise of ETT.

[chuck3]

Seems the A strings on a mandolin are like the B string on a guitar? Impossible to get 100% perfect due to the nature of fretted instruments?

I always figured that's because the B string is a third above the G while all the other intervals on a guitar are fourths. So you're going to get some overtones in conflict with each other more easily (I think). With four courses of strings all in fifths, it doesn't strike me as intuitive that one would be harder to tune than the others. I don't think frets are a factor in this case since we're talking about tuning the open strings (or at least I am).

[foldedpath]

A tip that may or may not help: If you're using string sets like D'Addario J74, look at the string tension:

• E .011 23 lbs.
• A .015 19.7 lbs.
• D .026 23.6 lbs.
• G .040 24.6 lbs.

Notice something different about the A string tension? It isn't balanced very well with the other strings. GHS uses a .016 gauge for their A strings, which is one reason I like using them for packaged string sets. I haven't done any solid testing that would prove it, but all other things being equal, and assuming good bridge/saddle intonation to start with, I think the A strings are a little more stable and better intonated in that .016 gauge. So you might want to try that, if you're currently using .015 A's.

[Tobin]

I always figured that's because the B string is a third above the G while all the other intervals on a guitar are fourths. So you're going to get some overtones in conflict with each other more easily (I think). With four courses of strings all in fifths, it doesn't strike me as intuitive that one would be harder to tune than the others. I don't think frets are a factor in this case since we're talking about tuning the open strings (or at least I am).

It has nothing to do with the intervals in the tuning of the instrument. It's all to do with the string gauge and tuning of that string for its length. The A strings are finicky about intonation just like the 3rd string of a banjo, because they exist right near the dividing line between plain strings and wound strings. In other words, the mandolin A course is usually a plain string, but some sets have them as wound strings. Same with the 3rd string on banjos and B string on guitars. There's compromises on both sides of that dividing line.

If you choose a plain string, you get a certain behavior from the string at that pitch which is slightly different than the other strings in the set. Makers try to compensate the bridge to correct it, but that only gets you so far. You'd have to compensate every fret to truly get it right (which is why fan-fret instruments work so much better).

If you choose a wound string, you'll get another set of behavior from it at that pitch and scale length. It may or may not work any better, depending on the compensation you have in your bridge and the gauge choices of your other strings. There are a lot of variables involved when trying to get a string set to work well across all string courses, and on all instruments.

So, long story short, a lot of people will either step up to a larger diameter A string (I like 0.016" strings as foldedpath mentioned). Some people like going to a wound string. Every mandolin will react differently. Just gotta find what works best.

[Tate Ferguson]

Thanks, folks, for the very useful answers to my quandary re my plebeian but sonically exemplary Eastman 305. I can readily believe the point about a .016 string balancing the others in a standard packaged set better; I probably will try this. What a great forum this is!