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Thread: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

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    Default Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    Hello, all. I have had my curiousity piqued by some posts on the relationship of scale length to notes/scales. My goal is the range of tenor banjo/octave mandolin, with the shortest possible scale length. I have seen 14" mando-banjos tuned (with nylgut) to the octave-below-fiddle or OM range, although I can't duplicate it without soggy bottom string. I am wondering if the 17" (popular in tenor ukes and maybe mandola) scale can really take the ball with GDAE tuning, an octave below fiddle. If so, can someone share string specs for that setup? I need to stay in GDAE, and really like the shorter range for fingering facility, as an old rookie.

    Thanks, and regards,

    David

  2. #2
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    I have never played a 17" GDAE tuned octave, but Thomastic 174 Medium 'Mandola' strings are, according to the packaging, made for GDAE at 17.75" scale length. I use them on my 18.5" Octave and they work very well. This successful short-scale may be an individual instrument-specific thing, though. My 18.5 Octave is an arch-top that was especially made with a smaller body size to match the shorter scale length, and that seems to have worked out very well. I'm not sure I'd want to go much shorter. I find that 18.5" lets me do everything I want to fingering-wise, and at least on this instrument, it still sounds great.
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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    I have Thomastik 174s on a 17" Flatiron pancake mandola tuned to GDAE. The strings intonate well, but I am not really satisfied with the sound on the G course. I think it's not the fault of the scale length, but that the body of the instrument is too small to sound good in the lower register.

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    The Wappen I show pictured in the 2nd post in this thread is a 17" scale OM (using Thomasticks). Its owner is in Great Britain. From what I understand, it is fairly common in GB and Europe to tune a 17" scale as OM (and therefore the availability of those Thomasticks) - but what I've read in this forum and elsewhere seems to indicate that the scale length is more suited for mandola tuning.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    I had an Octave Mandolin with a 17-5/8" scale, specifically constructed as an OM, --"Celtic Cross", I think the brand was (maker out of Vancouver BC, but can't remember his name offhand). The maker recommended using regular OM strings which sounded OK, but I started putting mandocello strings on it, as those super heavy cello strings turned that particular OM into a fairly strong instrument. Because of the thickness of the strings it was a bit hard to play, but the tone and volume were certainly worth the pain of playing with "tow ropes" for strings. I was always expecting the top to collapse, but it all held together flawlessly for years, with no top sinkage...or any problem at all (the strings didn't even rattle against the frets, as I assumed they would). Finally sold the instrument to a fellow who was very eager to get an OM that he could play like a regular mandolin (chord shapes and so on), which you can do with such a short scale.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Potosimando View Post
    I had an Octave Mandolin with a 17-5/8" scale, specifically constructed as an OM, --"Celtic Cross", I think the brand was (maker out of Vancouver BC, but can't remember his name offhand). The maker recommended using regular OM strings which sounded OK, but I started putting mandocello strings on it, as those super heavy cello strings turned that particular OM into a fairly strong instrument. Because of the thickness of the strings it was a bit hard to play, but the tone and volume were certainly worth the pain of playing with "tow ropes" for strings. I was always expecting the top to collapse, but it all held together flawlessly for years, with no top sinkage...or any problem at all (the strings didn't even rattle against the frets, as I assumed they would). Finally sold the instrument to a fellow who was very eager to get an OM that he could play like a regular mandolin (chord shapes and so on), which you can do with such a short scale.
    that's neil russel from victoria--although he might have moved to the okanagan.

    his instruments are built tough. i have had two, one i still have. a repilica of a late renaisance bell cittern. i use fairly heavy strings on it as well to get the extra oomph. well worth the fingering practice required. neil makes great instruments.

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    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    From what I understand, it is fairly common in GB and Europe to tune a 17" scale as OM (and therefore the availability of those Thomasticks) - but what I've read in this forum and elsewhere seems to indicate that the scale length is more suited for mandola tuning.
    17 inches (actually 43cm) is a normal scale length for the Italian mandola, tuned GDAE -- you can see those over at Musikalia. When you see "mandola" strings from a European string maker, they're usually intended for a 17-inch, GDAE instrument.
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    Thanks, all, for the thoughtful replies. I will look for the Thomasticks. My goal is fast tune-playing, but I don't care about chords. I will probably get a cheap tenor uke (17" scale) to try, but then the ultimate goal will be something louder, perhaps like the Magic Fluke (of ukulele fame) Firefly Banjo Uke in their new "tenor" size, which is tenor uke size, also about 17" scale. It's loud, but in my visit we didn't have time to try restringing it with the low G to try it that way. Actually, the youtube videos of a gentleman playing a 14" scale length mandolin banjo haunt me; he made it sound very good, and not loose in the low. But when I tried it on my Gibson MB, the low was floppy.

    Thanks again, and regards,

    David

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    I have a German bowl back GDAE mandola, 42cm scale, and I also string a Weber 17-inch alto instrument as an octave. I play both instruments professionally and both work fine. I've used Thomastik previously but I now prefer https://www.trekel.de/-Fisoma-3120-8...la-713875.html.
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  11. #10

    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    I have a Vega Arthur Godfrey baritone ukulele with a 19" scale that I tune like an octave mandolin, not sure if a shorter scale baritone ukulele like that might be better than a tenor for GDAE.

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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    I have a Matsakis Mandola that's 17" and tuned GDAE. I too have Fisoma's on it, although I have gone for Light Gauge Silk and steel F3110, the bass is a bit week so I might try the 3120s in medium.
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    Registered User gweetarpicker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    The Howe-Orme octave mandolas have a scale length of about 17 1/4" same as the scale length of a Vinaccia bowl back octave mandola. Thomastik strings are great, also the Dogal Calace Mandola Handmade Carbonsteel Roundwound Set RW91A.

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  14. #13

    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    That's about the scale length of a Waldzither. It can work, it just won't be particularly or loud, and the strings might need to be pushing .060" on the lowest course.

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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    Quick question for those reading this who are familiar with both and who'd know: Which of the two has more tension, Thomastik 174 mediums on a 17" scale instrument tuned GDAE, or Thomastik 164 mediums on a 17" scale instrument tuned CGDA? I am really dense when it comes to figuring out tensions, and IIRC, Thomastik is not very forthcoming about disclosing them either. To my hand, even though the former has larger gauges, it feels less "taut" than the latter while playing, so I was just wondering.... thanks!

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    Registered User gweetarpicker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    The gauges of the Thomastik Mandola 174 mediums are about .052, .036, .023. 015. The gauges of the Thomastik Alt-Mandola Set 164 are about .045, .028, .019, .013. They are both chrome flatwound over steel. When I plug these numbers into one of those online string tension calculators, the GDAE tuning with the 174 string set has the lower tension.

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  17. #16

    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    The tension stuff perplexes me; thanks for the comparisons and the very helpful suggestions, all! I should have mentioned that I would also consider nylon, since that is what the 14" mando-banjo was strung in, and it sounded like it could play and be heard. Anyway, I will consider any strings, and the fattest I have around is a .54 D'Addario from a classical set (metal wound on nylon) and that might be fine for 17" while the .60 steel might be what I'd need for 14" if I want to continue that extreme experiment. Is there a tension calculator you folks recommend over the others, for a simple rookie?

    Thanks, and regards,

    David

  18. #17
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by gweetarpicker View Post
    The gauges of the Thomastik Mandola 174 mediums are about .052, .036, .023. 015. The gauges of the Thomastik Alt-Mandola Set 164 are about .045, .028, .019, .013. They are both chrome flatwound over steel. When I plug these numbers into one of those online string tension calculators, the GDAE tuning with the 174 string set has the lower tension.
    I didn't know you could determine tension from gauge alone. Or is it because all other things are equal (string material type, scale length) that you can rely on the gauges to calculate it? Anyway, this confirms what my hands are feeling. The higher tuned set, although thinner and lighter, have a firmer, harder feel while playing.

    bratsche
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    Registered User gweetarpicker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can a 17" scale really play octave mandolin?

    You would need to know the actual mass of the strings to calculate the string tension accurately. Since both sets are chrome flatwound over steel by the same maker, I used the string gauge for a rough estimate. I was just looking to see if one set at the suggested tuning and scale length appears to be higher tension than the other, not quantify the tension exactly. Just search online for string tension calculator. A classical string (e.g. copper wound over nylon) would have a much lower mass (nylon is not nearly as dense as the steel core wire) than the equivalent gauge chrome, bronze or phosphor bronze wound over a steel core wire, and the tension would be much less.

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