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Thread: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando design

  1. #1
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando design

    I was reading the thread about f-holes, and the discussion veered towards mando design. the consensus tended towards that the Loar f-5 was the perfect design for the mandolin, and that is why it is king - that was not a unaminous decision...

    I got to thinking - can we improve the mandolin - if so, how? Obviously, there have been many failed or semi-successful attempts - the Ovation and the carbon fibre mandos spring to mind.

    But given that the Loar is probably the best, are there any changes you'd make? (I know people like Peter Coombe make beautiful variants too...)

    What would I change?

    I'd change the tailpiece - ball end strings, in a hole, like a guitar. (Please tell me if there's a good reason as to not, and 'it's always been done like that' is not a good reason. Why?

    I'd probably change the tuners to locking type tuners (is that already available?)

    More frets? Maybe.

    AFter you've told me why I'm wrong, tell me what you'd do.

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  3. #2
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    You’re not wrong at all, loads of room for improvement if you correct all the more obvious flaws.

    For a start I’d chop that unnecessary curly lump of wood off the top;
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    and take all that excess weight off the headstock so the instrument isn’t all top-heavy & unbalanced.
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    I’d offset the courses towards the bass side so there’s a bit more clearance for that lowest e string to avoid any inadvertent muting by wayward hands.
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    Then I’d take the button off the tailpiece;
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    as that only makes people think they’re supposed to stick a strap on it like some little guitar or something.
    Next you know they’re fitting roll bars on the back because they never learned how to hold the thing.

    Replacing the truss rod by using modern carbon fibre spliced between two blocks ensures rigidity without unecessary weight. Dressing it in ebony saves trying to finesse the composite seam.
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    Well then maybe to make the back lighter, giving a deeper & more responsive body while making better use of beautiful wood,I’d make it from a composite of strips of something like rosewood, in an aesthetically pleasing curve shape.
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    Then on the front you could just cant the top to give a good breakover angle on the bridge with less carving and waste.
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    Ok I’m being flippant but that’s really what I’d do.
    Last edited by Beanzy; Oct-10-2017 at 6:33am. Reason: Spelling
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    I'll keep it simple -

    Like my Kentucky KM-272, I would like to see many more instruments join the neck to the body at the 14th fret, instead of the 10th.

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    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Buy anything designed and made by Pete Langdell. My I-110 is perfect.

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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Yes one could make changes of things they don't like but those changes would be personal, different from one person to another, for instance I prefer a tailpiece, and I can't think how a locking tuner would accomplish anything. As far as the tone or the sound is concerned we have to consider which came first the chicken or the egg. I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about. The Loar sound has become the goal, what we think sounds like "grass", yes we have the "modern" sounding verses the "tradition",but really they are different sides of the same sound. I guess the oval hole or bowl backs are king in different styles, but a radically different sounding mandolin would "sound terrible " to ears schooled to certain sound. So I contend that changes in certain areas may be an "improvement" to certain people but major differences would only work if used in a compleatly new way.

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    Registered User Frankdolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    That's a great question David. I understand your desire to make the mandolin "better" to meet certain play-ability or genre requirements. But in my humble opinion the mandolin as it stands works great, and In my old way of thinking I say if it ain't broke don't fix it. Everyone probably has a different opinion as to what "works" though, so I say do whatever will let you play more.

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  12. #7
    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    I'd change the tailpiece - ball end strings, in a hole, like a guitar. (Please tell me if there's a good reason as to not, and 'it's always been done like that' is not a good reason. Why
    One reason comes to mind...it would be hard to squeeze 8 holes and pins into the space available on a mandolin.

    We have some terrific luthiers in the Cafe. Maybe some of them would share their attempts to improve the mandolin and what has or hasn't worked. In any event,this should be an interesting thread.
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  14. #8

    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Wi-fi?

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    I'm starting to repeat myself...
    "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!"
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  18. #10

    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about.
    May I have your permission to use that quote in my signature line?

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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    When I stop to consider the variety of bodies, soundholes and playing styles, I find a singular mandolin design cumbersome and ultimately pleasing to none.

    I will say, I really like the neck shape Jack Spira used on my cant top- flat backed mandolin. It has a flat ledge for my left thumb and more of a C shape on the bass side and more of a V shape on the treble side. I find it very ergonomic for me.

    I'm a fan of some aesthetic appointments that don't really offer functional (tone) benefits. I've sometimes found F style mandolins to be a little headstock heavy. But, I like the looks. I also like fins on old cars and leather saddles on modern bicycles. I'll trust my builders to make structural changes to their instruments as they experiment and learn what improves the function of an instrument or what can be tweaked aesthetically without compromising performance given I like a particular sound their instruments make.

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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    I'm responsible for suggesting that the F5 design was aesthetically perfect, so I'll take the blame. Obviously it is purely opinion. But history is the final judge, and so far history shows that Loar's design was and is, as perfect as one would want... Aesthetically. Not necessarily structurally.

    But it is quite easy to change the F5 Loar design if someone thinks they can make it look more aesthetically pleasing. Get some pen and paper, or heck, use a computer to fix the aesthetic "defects". Then post a pic of your new hypothetical design, and let the masses decide.
    Last edited by fscotte; Oct-10-2017 at 8:27am.

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  23. #13

    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    When you all come up with the perfect design, I will invent a Tone Guard to make it sound better!
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    We can, if we improve the mandolin player's taste accordingly.
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    I think it might be easier to improve my playing.

  27. #16
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    There already are alternatives to the typical F5 design that so many copy , because that is the Bluegrass look

    because it sells better, than the new designs?

    look up all the posts by people wanting F5s ..

    others ? Rigel comes to mind .. they drew outside the lines..

    I like my Djangolin, its certainly different..

    in the market place few sets for mandolin use ball end,

    but you can bodge loops to include balls, and break out the balls to be loop end.



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  28. #17

    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Design is nothing without intent. So the question is: toward what purpose are we redesigning the mandolin? "Better"...sure, but better for what? Better why?

    More volume? A growlier tone? Ease of playing melodic lines? Looking good on stage?

    The låtmandola is a great example of an existing instrument being redesigned to suit a specific purpose. In this case, an octave mandolin redesigned to answer questions such as: "How can I play on a fretted instrument the quarter-tone ornaments commonly used by Nordic fiddlers ?" and "How can I get a wide variety of different bass drones on a single instrument?"

    So...what are the questions you're trying to answer with your suggested changes? What is your underlying intent for the instrument?

  29. #18
    Registered User Tom C's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    I'd add lights to the fret board and GPS

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  31. #19

    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about.
    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    May I have your permission to use that quote in my signature line?
    Hows this? If you have any objections, I'll remove it.
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

  32. #20
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    May I have your permission to use that quote in my signature line?
    Sure. It's not copywriter LOL

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  34. #21
    Troy Shellhamer 9lbShellhamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Ha! I was just cursing my guitar yesterday while changing strings the pins kept popping out and I was wishing it had a tailpiece like my mandolins!
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  35. #22
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    EscapedCellist has the right idea, need intent. For me, it would be a bigger sound cavity for a little more volume and lunch at the low end. Shape doesn't matter, but I like the thinner profile of the A or F styles, simply due to the ease of holding compared to a bowl back.

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    Registered User red7flag's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Due to some really bad communication on my part I got a Sobell like mandola with a short scale neck on a larger body intended for a long scale. The result...fabulous. It has never ending sustain, with I like as I do not like tremolo very much. A mandolin player not liking tremolo, hearsay. This instrument has become my instrument of choice and play it both at jams and alone at home. Why? Because I love playing it. Nuff said.
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Hans Brentrup and Steve Sorensen both have made hot rod looking F style mandolins that for me I would prefer. The Loar F is a thing of beauty, but I am an A player, and like them. I could be swayed by either Han's Stealth or Steve's Shark. Both are great looking, but different than standard. Now that is some change. Let's not forget the Campenella Due. We do have some builders building different from the norm, very successfully, in my humble opinion.
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  40. #25
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    But history is the final judge, and so far history shows that Loar's design was and is, as perfect as one would want... Aesthetically.
    Except for those of us who crave symmetry... the lack thereof can cause nausea, and even seizures.

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