I don't mind buying and installing a tone gard, but it would be cool such a scheme were part of the instrument's design and built into the instrument from the beginning.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
I don't mind buying and installing a tone gard, but it would be cool such a scheme were part of the instrument's design and built into the instrument from the beginning.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
see post 29.Originally Posted by JeffD
f-d
¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!
'20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
How about carbon composite materials? Would not be bothered by humidity or temperature changes. Same tone, action, and playability every single time. Sounds practical.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
I will list a few of the questions I would like answered about mandolins. These can be construed as possible improvements, or not, as you wish:
1. Effect of body size on sound (both volume and quality). By size, I mean volume, not shape. And the effects of particular shapes on sound at a given body volume. For the most part, I see shape as an aesthetic choice, not particularly relevant to sound, but it may not be. I'd like this questions addressed.
2. Relationship of soundhole size and shape in a given body size and shape to sound (volume and quality). The optimal location of a soundhole.
3. A much lighter headstock and tuner design. Perhaps titanium tuners on a slotted headstock. Perhaps tuners at the tail.
4. An improved neck joint. The dovetail does the job very well, but is very complex to make and to make function well.
5. An improved method of intonation. This may be done at the bridge, nut, or some other way.
6. An improved, more ergonomic neck profile.
7. The optimal location of the soundboard. Inside, top, bottom, virzi, attachment of the internal soundboard, etc.
8. A functional integrated method of isolating the body from the instrument, both arm and torso.
9. Someone to play the damn thing for me so it will sound good.
Bill
Last edited by billhay4; Oct-13-2017 at 5:12pm.
IM(NS)HO
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
That's quite the list of questions! Luthiers have been pondering the answers for a long time. Regards #1 and #2, a frequency response curve of a mandolin will show a number of peaks that greatly affect its tone. There are air resonance peaks that depend primarily on the volume of body and the size and shape of the soundholes (and to a much lesser degree the shape of the body). The wood of the top and back also responds better to certain notes and thus there are also a number of wood resonance peaks. Whenever air resonance and wood resonance peaks are close in frequency, there can be significant coupling which can relocate the peaks a hew Hertz and increase their strength and bandwidth. The wood resonance peaks are affected by the wood itself, the graduation of the top, bracing patterns and other construction details.
The body size of a mandolin needs to be right-sized to get the sound you are after. If you doubled the body size of an F5, it would probably sound thin since the lowest air resonance peak would fall below the pitch of the G string and there would be no coupling of the air resonance with the typically higher pitched wood resonances of the top and back. A bowl back with its relatively large body has minimal coupling between its lowest air resonance peak and the top and back wood modes, and it lacks a prominent mid-range bark.
The soundhole size and shape both affect the lowest air resonance peak. In general, the smaller the soundhole the lower the lowest air resonance peak. However, the lowest air resonance peak of an oval hole mandolin is lower that the lowest air resonance peak of an f-hole mandolin whose two f-holes have the same combined area as the one oval soundhole. This is due to issues with the geometry and flow of air through the holes.
Regards the position of the soundholes, I have not seen much data on that. Certainly there has been a lot of experimentation with offset soundholes in guitars with some success (i.e. Kasha style guitars). I guess Tacoma made an offset soundhole mandolin when they were still in business.
All this to say that the body size and soundhole design greatly affect the tone quality and must be considered relative to the intended tuning of an instrument.
www.vintagefrettedinstruments.com
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
I had a Woodley that was an offset soundhole, parallel tone bars and had the depth and sound of an oval on the G & D strings and more the sound of an ff hole on the D & A strings. Great mandolin, sold it to a friend so I still get to hear and play it.
THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
When instruments already exist that clever people like Thile, Grisman, Mike Marshall, Isaac Eicher and many more like them are satisfied with and can use to make wonderful music, the hypothetical element of the quest is no more relevant than the amateur's never-ending quest for the perfect pick.
And I bet Lloyd Loar never used the horrid word 'mando' in his life.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
Like all quests, it's not about not having reached a satisfactory state yet, but about the nagging feeling that there might be something even better out there, undiscovered and missed-out on.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
There’s one thing for certain, any improvements will only be achieved by someone who tries.
We used to rely on the perfectly adequate model of the universe designed by Ptolemy, then that pesky Gallileo came along an used his telescope to look closer and upended that caboose. We haven’t stopped trying to build better telexcopes just because those early ones did a great job of overthrowing 1400 years of thinking. While Loar may have refined Mr Gibsons designs, there’s nothing to indicate his design was perfect. The many owners of his instruments who switch out his fretboards will attest that it’s worth investing money and effort improving the actual instruments he supervised. The old instruments don’t get worse just because the new ones are an improvement. Long may the improvements continue.
Eoin
"Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
But, alas, I suspect the room for improvement in the player will always exceed the one in the instrument.
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
There's only so many characters in the title. The Mandolin had to sacrifice it's last syllable.
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Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
I am slow on the uptake this morning - but the implication here is that since there is a Thile, for example, that can make a 90 something year old mandolin do anything - one could say that 90 something years ago the mandolin was already perfect and any improvements we might suggest are more indicative of things we can't seem to accomplish.
I don't agree, but - I would agree to say that we would probably all do better focusing on improving our playing, than hoping for a luthier or inventor to improve our equipment.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
So you have a Loar in your hands. You play it. When you say improve it, just what do you mean? You want it louder? Brighter? Aestetically more pleasing? More durable?
I suggest that a change in one direction might well lesson the qualities in another. So to me it would come down to what I want and that most certainly not be what someone else would want. Perhaps there will be some new material on the future. The guitar world has some very nice guitars, Emerald being the one that floats my boat, but I would not trade my wood ones in just yet. If I lived on a boat that might very well change.
It would be interesting if someone could devise a mechanical way to go from an oval hole sound to a bluegrass machine in one instrument.
Conservative as they might seem, the classical world has no problem replacing violin parts. Necks wear out. Replace them.
Wonder what a non original neck would to to the value of a Loar?
Silverangel A
Arches F style kit
1913 Gibson A-1
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
I know it’s hypothetical, but in reality, none of this is going to happen because the market isn’t there. Lots of people won’t even consider buying something that isn’t painted a certain color. I heard a podcast where Roger Simonoff said he developed some new bridge designs for Earl Scruggs and he liked them but wouldn’t use them because his audiences were expecting a certain sound. There are brilliant people out there who know a lot about why things sound the way they do, and how to make them sound different/better, but it’s tough to ask them to put hours of labor into something they’ll have a hard time selling when they can just build a sunburst F5 and keep putting food on the table.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
About Chris's Loar, he removed the fingerboard and had a radius-ed one put on. I guess that could be considered an improvement.
THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
Certainly getting it to play in tune (12ET) can’t have hurt.
Eoin
"Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
Why not?
Bernie
____
Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.
Re: A hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mandolin design?
It didn't have to. It was forced to, by the addition of superfluous words, such as "Let's" and "have". Remove them, and the "mandolin" could be intact again, as well as the "design".There's only so many characters in the title. The Mandolin had to sacrifice it's last syllable.
We can perhaps use that as an appropriate analogy here - words = appendages? Just a thought.
bratsche
"There are two refuges from the miseries of life: music and cats." - Albert Schweitzer
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Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the human drive to change and improve is a very deep-seated one. And is most rewarding.I would agree to say that we would probably all do better focusing on improving our playing, than hoping for a luthier or inventor to improve our equipment.
This is categorically not the case for the same reason. Humans are tinkerers. They change things for all kinds of reasons, not just economic ones just like they try to make money for all kinds of reasons.I know it’s hypothetical, but in reality, none of this is going to happen because the market isn’t there.
Bill
IM(NS)HO
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
Yes, of course, mandolin design will get better. Come back in 150 years to find out!
Anyway, no musical instrument has ever been "perfected." Even the Golden Age violins of Cremona (Stradivarius, Amati, Guarneri del Gesu, etc.) that are still played today have all been altered, for example, with longer replacement necks and other parts.
The Loar F5 is no more the apotheosis of modern mandolin development than the Strad is of violin development. To think otherwise is foolish.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
No pops that would be a preference. If everyone was like Chris all fingerboards would be radius-ed, if everyone was like me all fingerboards would be flat, and I hear some people really don't have a preference.
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
This has me thinking, I have read that the L Loar mandolins are well balanced across the strings (not top or bottom heavy) tone wise (no personal experience).
The descriptions of imperfect perfection also seems to describe a balance, maybe the right compromises in a lot of areas.
That unity of balance in design theme may have something to do with the wide appeal of these instruments. Like the instrument is true to itself in some way because of that?
Just a random idea, probably not original.
I should be pickin' rather than postin'
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
From what I've read, Thile had the fretboard replaced because the original wouldn't intonate correctly. Apparently, the issue stems from the jig being off at the Gibson factory in 1924. Most would consider the new board an improvement.
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...hile-Interview
1924 Gibson A Snakehead
2005 National RM-1
2007 Hester A5
2009 Passernig A5
2015 Black A2-z
2010 Black GBOM
2017 Poe Scout
2014 Smart F-Style Mandola
2018 Vessel TM5
2019 Hogan F5
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
Aesthetically, its very simple to alter the F5 shape, pen and paper, Photoshop, etc..
Doesn't require a luthier. Anyone can do it.
Isabel Mandolins
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arche...50923841658006
Re: Let's have a hypothetical discussion: Can we improve mando de
All you need is a hammer.
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