Do flatwound strings go dead?

[Paul Busman]

I know that the answer is probably that all strings go dead intentionally, but I can't tell if the FW74 on my two acoustic mandolins are changing. They've been on both instruments for a LONG time but still don't sound bad to me. Intonation is fine. Naturally, they have a somewhat flatter sound than roundwound strings but I'm not sure if they've changed. Actually, someone at an Irish session yesterday complimented me on the sound of my humble Fullerton Gloucester, and she was playing a vintage Gibson.

[JEStanek]

They will go dead eventually, of course. The A isn't wound nor is the E. I change mine when I hit tuning issues.

Jamie

[Bob Clark]

Hi Paul,

I use Thomastics, and I typically change them at about 10-11 months. They still sound good to me at that point, but when I put on the new ones, I am surprised at how much better the new ones sound. As they age, they change so gradually that my ears adjust to how they sound. I still like the sound up to that point, but a little shy of a year is about the limit for me.

Best wishes,

Bob

[Willie Poole]

Different mandolins react differently to some strings...a few years ago I used flat wounds to record with and liked them but they went dead in about two weeks so I don`t even think about trying them any more, but as I said that is just what my mandolin liked and others may find different results...there is also the factor that we all don`t like the same sounds from a mandolin so you have to try as many brands as you can and then you can make up your mind...

Willie

[bratsche]

I use Thomastics, and I typically change them at about 10-11 months. They still sound good to me at that point, but when I put on the new ones, I am surprised at how much better the new ones sound. As they age, they change so gradually that my ears adjust to how they sound. I still like the sound up to that point, but a little shy of a year is about the limit for me.

Yes, Thomastiks change very gradually. I keep mine on for years, but I have them on several instruments. The one I've played the most (a mandola) has them on for upwards of 3 years now, and I know a new set will sound better - but the amazing thing is they still intonate perfectly, so I'm less inclined to bother changing them! But I'm generally very easy on strings, both physically and biologically. I've also never had TI strings break or even unravel, unlike some other flatwounds.

bratsche

[Tobin]

The better question is whether flatwound strings were ever really alive to begin with.

Seriously, though, flatwounds are obviously going to start off sounding duller than round wound strings. That's a given. But if you're asking whether they go dead, you also have to ask what does it mean for a string to go dead? Even though we all kinda-sorta know what it means, I think we would all define it differently or at least have a different threshold for where we call a string dead.

Some people play on strings for years and years, even though they sound dull and lifeless to me. But as long as they think it sounds good, who am I to say the strings are dead? They're still making music and pleasing the owner.

I look at it like this. If we were to be able to measure and chart out the brightness or "life" of strings, it would be a curve that starts out high and gradually tapers off over time, eventually reaching a somewhat stable flat line. Each person would have their own idea of where to point to on that curve and say "there's where it died". A round wound string will start off higher and drop more dramatically in the first few weeks or months (depending on the player's style), but it will probably end up somewhere close to the same flat line as the flatwound strings. The flatwounds start lower, but end up in the same place with less of a dramatic curve to their decay.

Which is all to say that you're not going to hear the change happening as easily on a flatwound as you would on a round wound string. But if it still has volume that's acceptable to you, still intonates well, and you can't tell whether it's dead or not, then it's not dead. Don't worry about what others think. Their definition is different than yours. Only go by what your ears are telling you.

[Tavy]

Put it this way: you will notice a huge difference when you put new strings on, but the changes to the strings are so slow that as you say, you simply don't notice them changing.

For me the plain A and E strings on the FW74 become objectionable sounding way before the D and G - so I'll usually change those after a few months, and leave the D and G on for about a year. Much longer than that and yes they do start to sound bad (don't ask me how I know!) unless the instrument is getting only occasional use.

[Mandoplumb]

Never used a flat wound, but something is dead when it flatlines. I don't think I've ever had strings go completely dead on a mandolin, have had many on guitar. On a mandolin it gets where I can't "twin" them I know it's time to change. Yes the new ones sound somewhat better but I would have stayed with the old if they would tune. I suspect there will come a time when you can't tune the flat wounds and that is the time to change them whatever they sound like.

[Shelagh Moore]

+1 on Tavy's experiences with them here

[David Lewis]

I just put flatwounds on my Gretsch New Yorker. The New Yorker has the worst tailpiece design of all time, I suspect - changing strings is a nightmare. In the end, I had to go to a tech to put the last two on. So I'm pleased to hear that flatwounds will last a long time. I felt they would, and now I'm hopeful.

[sblock]

Regardless of whether strings are flat- or round-wound, the E, and usually the A as well, are made from solid steel. And there is no magic formulation for steel that somehow lasts forever. So, people who leave their strings on for years without changing them, and who furthermore claim that their strings "intonate just fine" and "sound just fine" are only telling you that their standards happen to be lower than some of the rest of us! They don't "intonate just fine," because after a few months of playing, strings tend to take a "set" and develop a series of micro-kinks at the fret locations, where they are constantly being bent during the fretting process. This kinking is unavoidable. And it deleteriously affects the intonation of fretted notes. You can easily measure this with a good tuner, like a Strobotuner. And you can easily feel these kinks in a set of older strings when you take them off, by just running a string through your closed fingertips. Our fingers can detect the micrometer-scale wiggles.

These older strings don't "sound just fine" either, if by "fine," you happen to mean "tonically similar to a new set of strings." As they age, they start to sound ever duller and flatter, with fewer bright, sparkly overtones. Granted, some folks happen to LIKE that quality in their strings, so they might even prefer the sound of old strings to new ones. But regardless of whether you like it or hate it -- or if you don't much care! -- there is no question that older strings will sound progressively different from new ones! So no, they don't intonate the same, and they don't sound the same.

All strings go dead. Period. But it's true that some folks tolerate dead strings. Some even prefer them! When first struck, dead strings will wobble around in pitch a bit, rather than promptly sounding at the right frequency. This makes tuning wonky, but if you happen to have less personal sensitivity to pitch, that same ambiguity can make it harder to detect harsh clashes and beats. In my experience, the folks with year-old (and older) strings are the folks who also have reduced sensitivity to pitch, and a greater tolerance for variation in frequency.

Hey, feel free to change your strings either as often, or as seldom, as you like, I say! But yessiree-bob, flatwound strings do most assuredly GO DEAD. There is no such thing as a free ride, here. Thomastiks tend to last a bit longer, it's true. No mandolin string lasts years, though. Not if you care about either intonation or pitch, that is. But maybe you don't care much? It's not for everyone.

[Bob Clark]

I'm in basic agreement with SBlock. As I stated above; ten to eleven months is about my limit for Thomastics. I'd just like to point out, though, that unlike FW74's, only the E string on Thomastic Mediums are plain. Even the A on these strings is wound. I have sometimes changed the E ahead of the others. The wound strings do seem to last longer. I'm sure glad that some vendors offer individual strings!

[colorado_al]

I'm in basic agreement with SBlock. As I stated above; ten to eleven months is about my limit for Thomastics. I'd just like to point out, though, that unlike FW74's, only the E string on Thomastic Mediums are plain. Even the A on these strings is wound. I have sometimes changed the E ahead of the others. The wound strings do seem to last longer. I'm sure glad that some vendors offer individual strings!

I do the same with the D'addario EFW74. I buy singles of the plain steel A & E strings and replace them about every 6 weeks. I replace the wound strings about every 6 months. I think they maintain their structure better than round wound strings. 1st off Stainless Steel is roughly 2x harder than bronze, and 2nd the flat winding vs round wears more evenly on the fret. Over time, the flatwound strings will develop divots and the core will stretch to a point where it begins losing elasticity, but overall they do last quite a bit longer than bronze round wound strings that most people use.

[Mike Snyder]

The d'Addario Fw74s are my go-to strings on an F5 and an A4. Both modern instruments with good tone and volume. I do not hear the loss of volume that many Cafe members report with these strings. Six months ago I switched back to EXP74s due to being in a bluegrass band, don't ask why. Did not notice the chop or melody lines being any different except for the slightly jangling tone that made me go flatwound in the first place. The wires get replaced at two months or so, depending on which instrument gets more play time. The wound strings 6, maybe 8 months, depending same. My feeling is that the d'Addario FWs are the sound and feel I looked for for 45 years, give or take. I also feel that instruments with good volume will have good volume with many string sets, and the inverse is just as true. Also, what you want to hear from your mandolin may be drastically different from what I want to hear from mine. I know lots of folks using various bronze alloy strings and they sound fine. As far as the OPs question; I don't hear mine going dead. I see rust on the wires. I change them. I see wear on the wound strings. I change them. They still sound fine. I do tend to wipe all strings with fast-fret frequently. It may or may not make a difference in the lifetime thing. It does make everything feel slick and effortless.

[Bertram Henze]

Some ships are unsinkable...

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Paul - "... but still don't sound bad to me." Put a new set on & you'll hear the difference !. That was something i discovered a loooong time back with my banjo. It always sounded 'good',but i've always made a note to change strings on a fairly regular basis because i know that they do go dead. I'd put a new set on & the difference was always far greater than i'd have thought. Because the deterioration is so gradual,our ears get used to the tone,even when it's not good. The same thing happens on mandolin,
Ivan

[Paul Busman]

Regardless of whether strings are flat- or round-wound, the E, and usually the A as well, are made from solid steel. And there is no magic formulation for steel that somehow lasts forever. So, people who leave their strings on for years without changing them, and who furthermore claim that their strings "intonate just fine" and "sound just fine" are only telling you that their standards happen to be lower than some of the rest of us! .

For all (of my)practical purposes, those strings still intonate well. I can't hear them being off in the lower frets which is where the music I mostly play (Irish) lives.
I don't have a fancy tuner. I use one of the D'Addario tiny ones and my tuner says that the intonation is pretty accurate. Anyway, I don't play the tuner, I play the mandolin. If my ear and those of the people who I play with at sessions can't hear the difference, good enough is good enough.
All of that said, I think I'll change those strings soon, one string of each pair at a time so I can hear the difference.
Does anyone but Thomastik make flatwound strings with a wound A? I'd like to try that option. Barring that, what diameter strings should I use for the A if I buy two separate flatwound strings?

[bratsche]

No doubt that the sound gets progressively duller, that's beyond dispute. I'll always be the first one intolerant of poor intonation, though. I play all over the fretboard, and like I said, I'm very gentle on strings. When I do take off an old set, it definitely looks like it's been on for much less time than it actually has. I've never even broken a string while in the act of playing (mandola or viola, or anything else). And music has earned me 95% of my living...

bratsche

[Willie Poole]

Paul, If anyone lets you know where to buy wound A strings by them selves please let me know also, I have been wanting to try some for a long time now...

Willie

[Polecat]

For all (of my)practical purposes, those strings still intonate well. I can't hear them being off in the lower frets which is where the music I mostly play (Irish) lives.
I don't have a fancy tuner. I use one of the D'Addario tiny ones and my tuner says that the intonation is pretty accurate. Anyway, I don't play the tuner, I play the mandolin. If my ear and those of the people who I play with at sessions can't hear the difference, good enough is good enough.
All of that said, I think I'll change those strings soon, one string of each pair at a time so I can hear the difference.
Does anyone but Thomastik make flatwound strings with a wound A? I'd like to try that option. Barring that, what diameter strings should I use for the A if I buy two separate flatwound strings?

Apart from Thomastik, both the Pyramid Gold and Fisoma Supersolo sets have wound A-Strings, though I'm not sure how easy they are to find in the USA. The european flat-wound strings (including TI) are a different beast from the D'Addarios; they are made of a softer material, and both sound and feel different (I prefer them, and have Fisomas on both my Vanden and Gibson A). If you want to look for a flatwound string to replace the A, .014 - .016 is the range you're looking for; good luck with that

[sblock]

Just to be clear on the physics, there is a good reason why worn strings intonate poorly, and there is also as good reason why older strings loose brightness. The reasons are a bit different, and I will try to explain here for anyone who cares about this stuff.

1) Old strings loose brightness because they develop microbends at the locations of the frets. The act of fretting places a tiny bend in any stretched string at the location of the fret. The repeated bending due to fretting causes the metal to take a set at this location. Also, the string below the fret is rapidly vibrating back and forth, whereas the string above the fret is not moving. This "works" the metal at the point of transition, causing it to become relatively more brittle at the fret location. So, when the open string vibrates, it carries micro regions (everywhere the frets are!) that are a bit stiffer than elsewhere along its length. All the low-frequency modes (the musical fundamental and lowest overtones), which are vibrations at the longest wavelengths (the full fretted length, half that length, 1/3 that length, and so on), have no problem vibrating, but the higher overtones involve much shorter wavelengths (e.g., 1/10 the length, 1/20 the length, and so on). At these short length scales, the string has stiff regions (by the frets) that resist bending much more than the rest of the string! So the high overtones encounter mechanical resistance, and get damped out. The result? More fundamental and low overtones, but comparatively few high overtones can sound out. We experience this as a loss of brightness in the note. This is why old strings lose brightness. And the more you play, the more brightness is lost. Flatwound strings are no more immune to this than roundwound strings, although they might have thicker cores, which offer slightly greater resistance to being worked.

2) The proper intonation of a string requires that it have absolutely the same diameter all along its length! Even tiny departures from this requirement translate into bad intonation. As wound strings wear, they develop some tiny flat spots on their undersides, due to wear (rubbing) at the fret locations. You can often see these shiny spots at the fret locations when you take off and examine an old string on its bottom side. These irregularities throw proper intonation off! Now, flatwound strings may take a bit longer to develop "fret divots" than roundwound strings, due to (1) the harder materials they tend to be wound with (not softer bronze) and (2) the lack of round winding protrusions (flat, not round, wire). But they are NOT immune to developing wear in the underside; they just take a bit longer, on average. I have seen it. Many of us have seen it.

I hope this gives folks enough of an understanding of the physics behind why older strings sound duller, and also why they begin to lose intonation. It is true that flatwound strings last longer. It is simply not true that they can go for years of regular playing without suffering these issues, however. That said, some players are comparatively insensitive to this loss of brightness and intonation, and therefore, they just can't seem to identify with what the rest of us are complaining about! Consider them blessed, because they do not experience the poor sounds that drive the rest of us to distraction, and cause us to replace our own strings more often!

[colorado_al]

Certainly steel flatwound strings do wear out and lose tonality over time. Just not as quickly as bronze round wound strings. Since they are inherently less "bright" sounding to begin with, there is not as discernible a change from new to old sounding as 80/20 or Phosphor strings. I also think that the surface of the winding spreads the force from fretting over a longer portion of the string so they develop micro bends more slowly and not as acutely as round wound strings where the fretting force is applied over a smaller area.

[Polecat]

Whilst on the subject of the physics of the thing - I had always presumed that strings go dead due to a physical change in the structure of the metal caused by vibration, much like metal fatigue in aircraft wings, which are theoretically stiff and fixed, but nevertheless are prone to becoming weak. Can anyone tell me if my presumption is right or wrong?
On the subject of kinks in strings - I have noticed that on my Vanden A, which has "traditional" frets, the issue of intonation becomes more quickly noticable than on my Gibson A, which has been refretted with the more "modern" wider frets. I would guess that I get 40-50 hours playing from a set before I feel the need to replace them (if I play one instrument exclusively, strings last about a month).

[colorado_al]

Whilst on the subject of the physics of the thing - I had always presumed that strings go dead due to a physical change in the structure of the metal caused by vibration, much like metal fatigue in aircraft wings, which are theoretically stiff and fixed, but nevertheless are prone to becoming weak. Can anyone tell me if my presumption is right or wrong?
On the subject of kinks in strings - I have noticed that on my Vanden A, which has "traditional" frets, the issue of intonation becomes more quickly noticable than on my Gibson A, which has been refretted with the more "modern" wider frets. I would guess that I get 40-50 hours playing from a set before I feel the need to replace them (if I play one instrument exclusively, strings last about a month).

The problem is due more to losing elasticity over time as the metal stretches and kinks. Narrower frets and higher action will cause more wear on the string in the same amount of playing time.

[DougC]

Paul, If anyone lets you know where to buy wound A strings by them selves please let me know also, I have been wanting to try some for a long time now...

Willie

I'm pretty sure that his guy has them. I bought flat wound strings for my Collings mandola. (Can't remember if the A was wound, but they were a lot like D'Addario FW74's).

http://www.emando.com/shop/strings8_mandola.htm