Rate my Logic: Choosing the Chinese over the USA Mando

[Brian Harris]

I was dead-set on getting a nice instrument - Collings or Weber. Something that would be my last instrument (I do not suffer MAS... so that isn't an issue). I was figuring I'd be investing $2500.

But this morning I thought, "Do I want to worry about this thing? When we have an outdoor gig and the dew settles on everything, do I want to fret (no pun intended)? When I take it to school to practice (I'm a teacher), do I want to worry? Do I want to play a different mando at home then I do at gigs?"

My answers to almost all these questions are, "No, I don't. I want a good tool. I want a Honda Accord. A Toyota Camery. I want it to work and sound good, but if it gets nicked in the parking lot I don't want to care."

So here's what I'm thinking...

1. Buy new so I can get just what I want, right away, and never think about it again.
2. Buy from the respected mandolin stores on-line so it comes set-up and ready to go.
3. Just go ahead and have a CA bridge thrown on from the start.
4. Have a solid cast tailpiece thrown on from the start (I very much dislike covers).
5. Even though it's an easy install, get the K&K twin stuck in there. They can worry about how it'll work with the tailpiece. Even though we play single mic, at least I've got the K&K as backup.

I concede I'm no mando expert. But I'm lucky enough to make some money with it. I also like to focus on music and performance rather than the instrument so I really want to nail this all in one shot and forget about it.

I'm also old enough to know that I don't know what I don't know. So I offer my thoughts up to critique. No need to be gentle, I don't get offended.

Thanks!

[Caleb]

If you want the Collings, Weber, etc, I'd wager that you'll always want it to some degree. That was my experience. Dings, dents, and the like don't bother me. The made in USA is a big deal to me on more emotional purchases, like an instrument. Having said that, a good Kentucky, Bovier, Eastman, etc, can be a lifelong workhorse. My advice is to find out what you really want and get it: that way you focus on the music.

[Hudmister]

I don't know where you'll find a Collings or Weber for $2,500. With the other desired changes, tailpiece, pickup, etc. you will probably do better meeting your monetary constraints by buying a nice Chinese mandolin. If your instrument is stolen in the parking lot it will make you angry no matter what you buy. A nice high end Kentucky is a place to start sampling your best options.

[JonZ]

In an amplified performance situation, a large percentage of your sound is determined by the sound system and the room. So really, the only reason to pay for that little extra is to hear it in the practice room or on a recording. I bought a nice mandolin because I like how it sounds in my kitchen, and I am not overly concerned about it getting harmed when I take it out. I do have it insured, in case of theft or catastrophe.

There are some incredible sounding mass produced instruments out there.

[Caleb]

I don't know where you'll find a Collings or Weber for $2,500.

There was a nice MT in the classifieds within the last week or so for around $1500. Not typical but it happens.

[F-2 Dave]

You might check out Eastman mandolins as well. They're making some great mandolins.

[MontanaMatt]

The analogy with cars "breaks down", lol, cuz there aren't equivalent cheap American cars! But there are some awesome American mandos. I have fancy mandolins and the only times I've been concerned is when my two year old son want to paw at it. If we can survive another year without a disaster we'll be cool. BTW, Northfield Airloom case doesn't have a lock!

Having upgrades done by professionals is a great option, and a quality internal p.u. is wise. I'm a Radius guy. Get the right d.i. (Impedance matching is vital)
In your price range, you'd be wise to consider Ratliff. Single maker, great quality, you might even be able to custom order a Country Boy exactly to spec and have a final mando without MAS. (Personally, that sounds unlikely, and frankly, unfun!, MAS is a journey worth the pain and longing)

Happy Pickin

[Loubrava]

Not sure what getting at, are you saying you want to buy an import mandolin for less than the $2500 if so what's the new budget ? No matter new or used I'd buy from a respected store. Depending on what import you get a CA bridge may not make any difference some imports have very good bridges. I actually bought a cheap import to put a K&K in and gig with it because I didn't want to "worry" I got the mandolin spent a day setting it up played it for a few days and sold it. It's really pretty simple & you don't need to be a mando expert to know what you want, go play the imports that fit your budget and if it sounds good to you & you enjoy playing it go for it.
Lou

[Pittsburgh Bill]

Split the difference in cost and buy a used Collings MT or Weber Gallatin (other used US options are also available in the same price range) and USE it!

[Jill McAuley]

Yes, what Caleb said - used Collings MT's come up fairly regularly in the $1500-1900 range. Not just via private sellers but also through Cafe sponsors such as The Mandolin Store, The Music Emporium, & Fiddler's Green. The price on used Webers seems to be higher now than from what I remember (having purchased 3 used Webers online over the years). A used Northfield F would fall into your price range as well and certainly rate as a keeper in my book!

[Mandobar]

Instruments are for playing. Buy the one that sounds the best to your ears that you can afford. People need to stop looking at the names on the label and headstock, and just judge an instrument on what it sounds and feels like.

[barry]

The most important criteria in your original post is not the brand, or country of origin, of your potential purchase. You said you are looking for a mandolin that allows you to focus on the music and not concern yourself with the instrument.
As a gigging musician, you will just need to play a bunch of them to get a feel for what fits you. That's going to be the whole ball of wax right there. The rest of the details are minutiae that can easily be sorted out.

[Dagger Gordon]

While the Collings MT is not cheap, it is nonetheless the cheapest model Collings make and if something happens to it you should be able to find another one.
They are very good instruments but 'relatively' inexpensive when talking about good mandolins (I have one myself).

Looking at what you say, it seems to me that your question is less of a distinction between China and the USA than buying a cheap mandolin or a middle range one (you don't seem to be in the market for a very expensive one).

Buy the best you can afford regardless of where it comes from is my advice, but if possible play the actual instrument first (not just the same model - I mean the actual instrument).

[pops1]

I have several mandolins, and very seldom play anything but my best. Less is, well less. Seems I am not happy playing something that doesn't sound as good. It shows, it has the finish and most of the color worn off the neck, numerous scratches and wear places, but I love it and play it in all situations. Yes I would be devastated if it were stolen, it is not replaceable, well I have not seen another like mine for sale in the last 10 years since I got it, so I am careful with it. It doesn't stop me from playing it all the time. That said get the mandolin that speaks to you, that you love to play, and play it, enjoy it, love it. You will not regret it.

[Folkmusician.com]

As a younger man, I would tend to strive for the best things my means allowed and I always appreciated the finer details. Now coming into middle age, I find that I was not entirely correct in my thinking. I had to sacrifice a lot in life to acquire these things. Granted, I still own a nice Les Paul, a Martin, a Vega Banjo, custom bass, nice fiddle, etc.. Most all of these were acquired in my 20's and I still have them. With few exceptions, all of my instruments have appreciated in value. So how could this have been a bad decision?

Well, it turns out, the larger my collection grew, the more it shaped my life. Some of my first residences, were less than desirable and I had to be extremely careful about leaving the home unattended, else lose my instruments. While not up there with signed Loar's, many of these instruments are valuable enough than it is stressful to take them out into less than ideal conditions. I now question my decision to collect a good deal of nice instruments, vs. having a few serviceable versions. The few modestly priced instruments I have owned have always been the most used. I didn't worry about taking them to a campfire jam. If it wanted to try something else, I sold them without grief. Tossed them in the car with no case... The lower cost instruments make life easier for me.

25 years ago, I would not have been satisfied with a modest instrument. So maybe at the time, there was no other option. Now, I find I am happier without being emotionally attached to my things. I think this a very personal choice. Partially related to how big the investment is related to one's comfort level. In my opinion, the ideal balance is to get the best instrument that you will use without worry. Whatever that price range might be, is fine. $1000, $3000, $10,000+.


Now, a nice, modesty priced instrument with cast tailpiece and K&K.... This sounds mighty similar to the Eastman MD615. Add CA bridge, and there you go!

[Brian Harris]

Great thought everyone. I appreciate it.

I made some generalizations to keep the original post brief. Otherwise it becomes a dissertation.

I genuinely don't suffer MAS so a instrument that serves my purpose won't yield any residual longing.

Name on the headstock is a kind of shorthand that helps keep discussion moving.

I threw out numbers and shouldn't have. It's not a huge determinant. More like just a way to show I was willing to "go big" if necessary. But I'm thinking not. Perfect example, my Shen upright is a workhorse that has had a hard outdoor life. I'm happy with it and $1600 was really the magic price point.

While I'm aware that, like food, our eyes can deceive us (just see the double blind studies on wines and Stradavarius violins to start), I'd like to think I'm immune from brand name influence (of course though I'm. Not though - marketing is a seductive mistress!)

The Mandolin Store has some performer models where they throw the K&K in from the start. They also seem like they'd be honest and tell you if the CA bridge wouldn't be necessary.

[allenhopkins]

I was dead-set on getting a nice instrument - Collings or Weber...I was figuring I'd be investing $2500...I want a good tool....1. Buy new so I can get just what I want, right away, and never think about it again....I also like to focus on music and performance rather than the instrument so I really want to nail this all in one shot and forget about it....!

Look, you're playing out professionally, so let's assume you make more in a year than your planned budget for the mandolin. You want an instrument that will cure MAS permanently, "nail this all in one shot" and all that. (Parenthetically, short of a Lloyd Loar Gibson F-5, that instrument may not exist for some people...and even then...)

So you want to get, I guess, the best instrument you can for the money. But you don't want one that you get anxious about if it gets "dew" on it, or such-like.

I would [1] increase my budget, since I'm doubtful you can meet all your criteria for $2500; [2] get the Collings, Weber, et. al. that you really want, with the features you want installed (pickup, etc.); [3] consider it to be a tool, as you said, that you use to express yourself and earn money -- and not worry about what might happen to it along the way, assuming you routinely take good care of it.

Say you play in a group that has a PA system to use for gigs. Does someone say, "Hey, I don't want to get a real good PA system, even if we can afford it, because it might get dinged up at a gig; let's stick with this lesser system, even if we don't sound as good." I think we get too hung up about wear, tear, and exposure of our mandolins, when we're taking them out and playing them frequently. There's little benefit, IMHO, to agonizing over what scratch or ding might occur when we play. Those things will happen anyway, it's almost inevitable, and at least we will have gotten the benefit of playing a fine instrument, one that sounds good, feels good, and leads us to play better.

There's nothing wrong with a Camry or an Accord -- I have many equivalent mandolin and other instruments --unless you're truly longing for a Corvette or an Escalade. But I've always wondered about people who buy expensive cars, and then almost never drive them, for fear of wear or damage. That attitude changes the use of the car from a transportation vehicle, to an art object. Think of the years of enjoyment you'll get out of playing that really good mandolin, for your own, and others', pleasure. Sure, the frets will wear down, the fingerboard will get little dents where your fingers push the strings into it, perspiration from your wrist will cloud the finish, the back may get finish wear and you may put a ding or two in the top. That's just the price of using it the way it was built to be used.

Well, you know what they say about "opinions," so take this for what it's worth (2¢).

[Dave Sheets]

Well, here's 2 cents- The Collings MT (or MTO) is just a whale of an instrument for the price. Find a used one, and don't modify it until you've had it a while (if ever). Then buy a second used mando (like a Eastman 305 or a rover or the basic Kentucky) with a pickup installed to take places where you'd worry about the Collings, and where the difference in sound just doesn't matter much. Total price may be about what you are looking to spend. You can leave the less expensive one at work even. That gives you the best of both worlds, a really nice mando for "safe" situations, and one you can take anywhere and use without worrying about it. You can't have fun playing if you spend all your time worrying about the instrument. I prefer playing high quality but "scuffed" instruments at gigs, they sound great and I don't get too stressed about them.

Heck, you are presumably playing something now, get a pickup installed in it and use it as the "beater" instrument that you can use anywhere, and get the "good" one for safe situations.

[dhergert]

When I got back into playing mandolin about 7 years ago (after a 45+ year banjo excursion that still continues) I sort of unexpectedly got back in with a good sounding, used, mid-priced but somewhat respected USA-built mandolin.

Last year I began to realize that when push comes to shove and I want a single instrument to take with me wherever I go, it's going to be the mandolin. That's when it hit me that there are places that I don't want to carry my nice USA-built mandolin due to risk of damage or loss, so I started looking for a beach/camping/travel backup mandolin.

I was lucky enough to get into the $199 factory blowout of some pretty well made, solid wood, hand-carved (per specs) Asian Rim mandolins that was well discussed here on the Cafe'. I've taken the time and money to set it up almost identically to my USA-built mandolin, to the point where it plays and produces tone and volume nearly as well as the USA-built mandolin.

The Asian-rim mandolin doesn't have the respected name in the peghead of the USA-built mandolin, and to a large extent it looks like an Asian Rim mandolin, but from a blind test standpoint, 80% to 90% of the people [EDIT added for clarification: listening audience] I've tested with can't tell the difference between these two mandolins.

From my experience I'd say, if you get a more expensive mandolin, you're going to want to have a backup mandolin that you won't feel so bad about if it were to get seriously damaged or lost. So why not plan that way?

[Mark Wilson]

If you love to play - buy the best quality you can afford. Used would be my preference.
Play it and use it like you mean to and little by little you will notice it's not pristine anymore.
It's still very nice but like a car with it's first ding you don't fuss where you park it

There are some decent sounding pac rim instruments out there if you have the time to sort them them. I disagree completely that 80-90% of seasoned pickers can't tell the difference from pac rim to local built mandolins, but I might agree that first time buyers might not comprehend the differences.

I would take my Ellis A5 camping. Life is short. Enjoy it to the max

[colorado_al]

I love the sound and playability of my Collings MT. I also have a JBovier that is a close second to it. As far as comfort and playability, they are matched. Same goes for design. Both have radiused fingerboard, large fret wire, solid tailpiece. I'd say the JBovier is 95% the Collings tone-wise. Not quite as great a dynamic range and the tone isn't quite as sweet acoustically, but plugged in via pickup to the board, they sound the same. If brand is not an issue, I'd recommend the JBovier for a no-nonsense, no-worry gigging instrument. You can buy a new A5 for $900 + $195 for K&K, installed by Jeff before it leaves his shop.
Or if you have scroll envy, you can buy the JBovier F5 for $1600

[CES]

Used Collings MT, a used Silverangel, Northfield, or something equivalent gets you a professional sounding and playing instrument well within your budget, but not so expensive that you’ll be afraid to take it out of the house. I’ve owned both, and my SA remains my go to mandolin. I’m playing it in church today, in fact, and I take it everywhere except more extreme environments. For those environments (beach, camping, lake) I have an Eastman 315 I bought on clearance for < $500. I get a ton of compliments on the Eastman’s tone, and most who hear me play wouldn’t know the difference between it and the SA (it really is a good mandolin), but I know the difference...I can hear and feel it. I consider myself fortunate to have both options, but I could use the Eastman for 100% of what I play, and no one else would know the difference.

Good luck deciding!

[Roger Adams]

From the looks of Bill Monroe's Loar, I would say he gave little thought to a ding now and then! The instrument was his tool for his business. Musical instruments are the tools we use to make music. Buy the best tool you can afford and don't look back!

[FatBear]

I think we get too hung up about wear, tear, and exposure of our mandolins, when we're taking them out and playing them frequently.

Yeah. They are glued up chunks of wood. Most damage is repairable, even if attacked by a fireplace poker. And the scars become stories. I say get the one you like, make sure you've got insurance (if using it for business, your homeowner's policy probably doesn't cover it) and then play it.

Also, keep in mind that if it is a business asset you will depreciate it - meaning you'll get the money back over time through reduced taxes. After some point, you will have recovered the purchase price in tax savings and the instrument will essentially be "free". Of course, that also means it will be "worthless". Then if you ever sell it, you'll have to pay taxes on what you get for it. By then you'll be famous and can donate it to avoid the taxes.

Or you could keep it as your personal instrument and just play it for your gigs without all of the tax ramifications. That probably makes more sense unless you are a full time musician.

[JonZ]

The Collings MT keeps getting mentioned. So, I will mention that they are well-built instruments with a sound and feel that many like, and some don't.