Clip-on mic setup, anyone?

[Mark Gunter]

Surely some of you guys or gals use some sort of clip-on mic setup for amplifying your mandolin. Some time ago I discussed some options with Andy (almeriastrings) and at the time, he recommended the AT PRO 35 condenser mic. I'd like to hear from clip-on mic users as to which mic you use, where do you clip it on to the mandolin so as not to touch it while in use, what are the pros/cons of your setup?

I'm not asking for much, just what anybody else would want, the tall order:

1. economical
2. acoustic sound preservation
3. good volume
4. no feedback
5. little or no extraneous noise

Yeah, you know, a perfect setup with all pros and no cons

I'm finally in a position to get something going besides the Baggs radius, which I don't really care for. Comments on mics, clip-on hardware, and other accessories are welcome. My amp is the Marshall AS100D.

[almeriastrings]

4. "No feedback" is impossible with any sensor. Even a Strat will feedback in some circumstances as Hendrix so creatively exploited... you can reduce the possibility, however. Good EQ and notch filtering. Careful use of stage monitors (or IEMs). Controlling stage volume. No absolute guarantees, though... turn it up enough and the laws of physics kick in, and as Scotty said......

[colorado_al]

I use Pyle-Pro PMSAX1
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003AQ1X7A/

With this mount
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/access...iolin-mandolin

For pre amp/DI/phantom power I use PreSonus Tubepre
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0072JBCTK/
I really like the way that a real tube preamp sounds compared to most solid state options
If your amp can provide phantom power, you can go without the preamp

If you have more cash, the AT PRO 35 is a better mic, but 3x more costly

If I have feedback problems, (usually in a PA situation without a sound guy) I swap in BEHRINGER SHARK FBQ100 instead of the presonus preamp
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0051TZBTU/
It can provide phantom power and automatically notches out feedback. Doesn't sound as good at the tube pre, but does the job

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks guys. @almeriastrings, yes, the "want list" there was written tongue-in-cheek, I realize there are limitations.

@colorado_al, thanks for the links! About position, where do you attach it? I would suppose something similar towhat they show on their website?



Also, though my amp will provide phantom power, are there other reasons to prefer a good preamp/DI? Would a good one make a significant difference in filtering for feedback, for instance?

[jim simpson]

Audi Technica Pro 35 mic & DPA clamp

[mandroid]

Cant buy stage craft, off a shelf, its something you learn .. where you place microphones relative to speakers is part of that.

[Mark Gunter]

Jim, many thanks for that photo of your setup

[Beanzy]

I’m a bit of an outlier in the mics I use.
I use the Sony ECM 77 with it’s own preamp which will take either phanthom or a single AA battery in the tube.

I have two methods of mic placement, one uses a grommet in the upper front fhole slot facing the bridge.
For the violin I have made a custom mounting that places it in front of the tailpiece suspended between the strings pointing at the foot of the bridge.
However my preferred method is to mic the back of both instruments by wearing it as a lavalier so it sits about two or three inches from the back of either. This gives a good balanced & clean impression of the actual sound of each instrument, plus has better feedback rejection and lets me sing without anyother mic.
One thing to note about body worn mics is you need to be disciplined in how you bend down to pick up or put down the instrument so you don’t lean into the monitors etc.

[onassis]

Unless it's a model with on-board EQ, a preamp won't do a lot for a clip-on. It's a condenser mic just like any other.

I use a Pro 35, clipped onto the Toneguard below the treble ff-hole and pointed at the ff-hole. When I'm using my own system, it then goes into a Soundcraft UI-12, where I roll off the low end on the EQ. This really helps with handling noise.

We also set up a low condenser (about belly button high) that the banjo player and I step up to for solos.

If you're using a system with adequate headroom and EQ, it's easy to get plenty of volume from the Pro 35. I should add that the UI-12 has built-in feedback suppression, but we use wedge monitors (at a low volume) with condensers and very seldom have a problem. The only times I've had problems with the clip-on is when someone else is running the sound who loves loud monitors.

The sound fidelity is fantastic. My mandolin has an internal K&K twin, and in loud or otherwise sketchy situations I use that with a Fire Eye Red Eye preamp. But I much prefer the mic, much better sound and still the ability to move around the stage.

[foldedpath]

My DPA 4099 on mandolin and octave mandolin. I've never had to figure out how to do this on an oval hole, but this works very well for F-hole mandolins. This placement keeps the mic away from my picking hand, and the tone is good from this position:

[Mark Gunter]

Ordered the AT PRO 35 and DPA clip, thanks for showing your setups, much appreciated.

[Mark Seale]

My DPA 4099 on mandolin and octave mandolin. I've never had to figure out how to do this on an oval hole, but this works very well for F-hole mandolins. This placement keeps the mic away from my picking hand, and the tone is good from this position:

I'm quoting FoldedPath, because mine is identical. DPA4099v mounted toward the tailpiece with the boom pointed the end of the treble side f hole. I typically run direct to my Acoustic Image Corus and use the onboard send to the PA.

[Mark Gunter]

Mark, foldedpath, looks like a winning setup. I'll experiment with the gear and aim for something similar.

[soliver]

Hey Mark, I’ve played at the church a few times and used the clip on mic they’ve supplied me with (couldn’t tell you the make or model) and it had been my limited experience that it works well in a setting where it is just me and a guitarist, but not so good with a full band; since it is a mic, it picks up EVERYTHING else (particularly if you are brave enough to play with a drummer), so you have to be attentive to where your facing.

I just ordered a JJB piezo pick-up for my Eastman to try ... should be here mid week and I’m looking forward to it.

[almeriastrings]

There are two good methods of attaching a Pro 35 (or ATM350). The first is good if you have a finger-guard. Very quick. Stable. Uses the existing standard clamp (though I have added a bit of extra padding for protection and ease of grip):





The other method uses the DPA clips. I use a nylon wire tie to lock in the ATM goosenecks:






Oval holes: The best method I've found so far uses the AT 'guitar' clip. Works well with PRO 36's, ATM 350's and PRO 70's:



All of these run straight into the main mixer channels... all the EQ is done there (as I use digital mixers I have the settings saved as profiles so I can just recall them). Mostly I use the QSC Touchmix 8 and 16, and these have a superb range of EQ option on all inputs and outputs - GEQ, PEQ, AFS, etc.

If you want to use these mics into an amp that only has a 'mic' xlr minus phantom power, you'll need an external phantom PSU, but the AT's are all quite happy with a wide range of voltages - from 11-52v.

[Mark Gunter]

All great info, thanks Andy. My amp does have two XLR inputs and both provide phantom power. There's also a fourth channel with RCA jacks, so I could conceivably run the Scarlett Solo there for an additional XLR jack and instrument jack if it came down to it. I'll try to get started with this basic setup.

[JimKo]

Here is another option if you find the clip mount leaves you dangling. I recently modified this set up by adding a sleeve and set screw to the side of the wood black to keep the mic stem from moving. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...ighlight=JimKo

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks Jimko, that looks great. The one criticism is a deal breaker, though, removing that to put the mandolin in the case would be a PITA I think. I'm hoping the DPA clip will work well enough for me, it seems to be pretty popular and securing the gooseneck will be an important factor in its use - I'm assuming that's what had you dangling, rather than the clip coming loose from the rim?

[Brian560]

I am curious about your experience with the Braggs radius. I am also debating if I should get the Braggs, or one of the clip on microphones. I was wondering how that putty used for the Braggs affects old thin shellac finishes. I was interested in something removable.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

I use an Audio Technica Pro-70 clipped to the tailpiece in roughly the same spot at Mark Seale. I find if it's too close to the F hole I am more likely to have feedback issues. Clipping it to the tailpiece can scratch up your instrument a little, though.

Thanks,
Baron

[Mark Gunter]

I am curious about your experience with the Braggs radius. I am also debating if I should get the Braggs, or one of the clip on microphones. I was wondering how that putty used for the Braggs affects old thin shellac finishes. I was interested in something removable.

I really don't have any experience with the Baggs radius. I know it did the job for the guy I bought the mandolin from, he used it for several years playing professionally. I heard him play it only at one show. I haven't gigged at all with the mandolin, too comfortable with the guitar, but I'm going to change that now, after two years of playing at home and jamming a bit.

I ran the radius straight into my amp to try it at home, and didn't like what I heard, but it was not an ideal setup. I got a lot of thump, bump extraneous noise, and low threshold for feedback, so I took it off. Then, when a cafe member needed one for a one-time gig, I loaned it out, sent it to him through the mail to use. I asked him about it before the gig, and he wrote:

I put it on and plugged it into my guitar amp and it made noise so I'm leaving it up to the sound man to deal with how it sounds. The show is Sunday and I'll get it right back to you. Thanks again

Then after the show, he wrote this:

This thing sounded amazingly good. Jordan Ramsey thought it sounded better than his Sam Bush, although I don't know what he has in it. That's a powerful instrument but quite bright. Mine is warm as toast though and that came through. I didn't get much pick or body noise. I think that thick putty must buffer that stuff. Don't know when I'd ever need this again though because I like staying away from stages. so I'll return it tomorrow.

That's the sum total of what I know about the radius. I offered mine for sale just yesterday, here and at fleabay - and someone at the bay snagged it right away for the 'buy it now' price.

I can tell you that there are plenty of threads here that deal with the radius that you can read. Also, a whole bunch of audiophiles who know more about the setups than I do.

Good luck with your setup.

[almeriastrings]

I am curious about your experience with the Braggs radius. I am also debating if I should get the Braggs, or one of the clip on microphones. I was wondering how that putty used for the Braggs affects old thin shellac finishes. I was interested in something removable.

This is entirely subjective... but... along with the dreadful Fishman bridge pickup the Baggs Radius is one if the nastiest sounding transducers I have ever encountered. Exceptionally prone to 'thump' and handling noise, and take a lot of messing around with EQ to sound even half-decent. As to comparison with a microphone (any microphone) not even close. If you do specifically want a pickup, the K&K's (or JJB's) really do a very good job with minimum fuss and at reasonable cost. Incremental improvements can be had using an AKG C411 or the Schertler's that employ an electret vs. piezo element, but a well installed K&K rig can sound very good...not (in my opinion) as natural as a good microphone, but just about "as good as it gets" for pickups.

[almeriastrings]

I use an Audio Technica Pro-70 clipped to the tailpiece in roughly the same spot at Mark Seale. I find if it's too close to the F hole I am more likely to have feedback issues. Clipping it to the tailpiece can scratch up your instrument a little, though.

Thanks,
Baron

The Pro 70 is a wonderful little mic, often overlooked, but it is a fantastic 'stealth' mic that works on almost any instrument: mandolin, fiddle, banjo, guitar (including classical and Gypsy jazz models), percussion (great on Bodhrans and Cajons), 'cello, string bass and even sax. You can fix it or tape it into place in numerous ways, and it is easily concealed, so useful in filming situations. They sound superb. If you are getting proximity-related feedback (they have quite a tight cardioid pattern) you can usually EQ this out. What I would do is put an RTA (real time analyser) on the channel (or use an external one) and identify exactly what frequencies are causing the problem (they will likely be in the low mids) and then apply selective EQ curves to reduce gain in those bands. Many digital desks will have this capability built in, and you can then save a custom profile for that mic, instrument and mounting position in your user scenes.

[onassis]

I had zero luck with the Baggs. It was my first attempt at amplification and I couldn't find any way to EQ out the thump and knock, even using Baggs Para DI. this was before I had the UI-12, which has a lot more sound shaping capacity.

[Toni Schula]

My DPA 4099 on mandolin and octave mandolin. I've never had to figure out how to do this on an oval hole, but this works very well for F-hole mandolins. This placement keeps the mic away from my picking hand, and the tone is good from this position:

I use the DPA 4099 in the same position with good results.

Regarding feedback versus sound quality:
If the venue allows I like to have the mic a little farther from the soundhole - approx 3 cm - for more natural tone.
If feedback is an issue I move the mic closer. But then the low frequencies need more roll off.