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Thread: Mandolin Ornaments

  1. #26
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Pickin-D (op), I would ask - as a player of the music, how *you* would go about deciding and applying ornaments on the instrument. The reason I mentioned all of the harp and stuff is to present context for such a basis of determination, as the form (slow air, et al) derives greatly from (old) tradition (like, prior to widespread mndln and bnjo use), so you're just interpreting/adapting the music to the mndln anyway.. And theres SO much room for interpretation and expression in slow music. So I would say, how would you play it? How do you feel it? Every instrument is different, and this is opportunity for liberties and expression in the music.

    Some experience and careful study of how other instruments do phrasing and ornaments is necessary. Comparing a flute version to a box version can really show where the instrument has limitations. Pipe players have their own way of addressing their limitations, but they are considered to be very influential in Irish and Scottish music and provide the style.

    Mandolins interpret traditional instruments and (to me at least, IMHP) often don't sound right. Because mandolin is relatively new to the scene, I often wonder where the mandolin player got their ideas.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I think many of the musicians here are aiming for the perfect Celtic "sound" and the exact traditonal way of playing this music. But some of us late beginners who will probably never achieve those goals just want to play some Celtic sounding music and have a good time. If I had begun playing Celtic music in 1948 (when I actually started playing trumpet), I'd probably be pretty knowledgeable by now. However, I've played all the brass instruments since then and numerous flutes and whistles including Irish. I've played Tuba in an Oompa band, and I marched in an Air Force Drum and Bugle Corps. I've also studied side (marching) drum because I love bagpipe bands and wanted to give their snares a go (which unfortunately didn't happen).

    In short, I love music, and, now I'm trying find some enjoyment learning and playing Celtic strings. To do that, I need info and help, and that's why I joined this forum and this division of it. I'm very much an intermediate at best.

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  4. #28

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I hear you, Dick. However, you'd asked about slow airs - typically a solo idiom, in which mandolin has not typically been involved. So, we look to models of inspiration, played on other instruments as it happens, from which to inform our playing, arrangement, sensibility.. One thing that immediately occurs to me: try playing an air that you play on flute/whistle (now on the mandolin); insert ornaments where you normally do. You should learn a lot from this - technical aspects that are/are not viable should be easily discernable, etc.

    The context of the music - which I've attempted to present - rather than being prescriptive of "how someone should approach," is intended as a model from which to derive knowledge, sensibility. If I were aware of such music played on a mandolin I would certainly share that! But I know of none. Perhaps you will make progress in this regard - you have nothing but my encouragement, as do all others.

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  6. #29
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    I was always taught that a treble involves the same note and a triplet is ascending or descending notes.
    Ultimately, it doesn't much matter what terms you use for what, as long as you are teaching the technique and style well. Your definitions make a meaningful distinction as well (I choose the terms static and moving or running treble/triplet for that).

    The problem is mainly on forums like this one, where people use terms casually in the assumption that everyone understands it the same way. The thing is, triplet is a long established term in the language of classical music theory and carries with it a particular definition; treble is a less rigidly defined term, so I don't think anyone can tell you you are using it incorrectly. (Treble has, of course, a completely different and unrelated meaning in music theory - but different enough that confusion is unlikely to arise.)

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  8. #30

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    The last time I encountered the triplet/treble question, there was quite a debate over it. I don’t remember the final outcome, if there was one. I guess it shows a big problem with words. As an English Major, I find it very interesting.

  9. #31
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    The way I think of triplet vs. treblet, for what it's worth:

    Triplets:

    Triplets are always part of the tune as written/composed. If there is sheet music for the tune, they'll be written down in the sheet music. Everyone in an Irish session will be playing them the same way, in the same place in the tune.

    Triplets follow the tempo of the tune. You can hear this in tunes that include triplet phrases like "Brenda Stubbert's Reel," where the triplets that begin each phrase will be faster or slower depending on how fast Brenda's is being played.

    Treble Ornaments:

    Trebles are an optional series of notes played as personal expression, and may be inserted (or not) at different parts of the tune by different musicians. Although, there are some conventions where trebles are more likely to be used. Like whenever there's a lone quarter note in a jig that cries out to be "trebled." Trebles are never written down in sheet music, unless it's part of a tutorial on ornaments.

    In common with other Irish ornaments like cuts and rolls, the speed of a treble ornament is usually independent of the tune's tempo. It's a quick burst of notes from the flatpick, regardless of how fast or slow the underlying tune is being played. A treble might also be played "percussively" where you don't hear much of any actual pitch in the note. I think this is more common with tenor banjo than mandolin, due to the single vs. double-course strings, but there is still some room to decide how much pitch you want heard with the pick attack.

    There may be other subtle differences, like whether the notes within a treble are pitched differently or not, but that's how I think of the differences.

    Edit to add: Oh, I just thought of one other difference! You can screw up a treble ornament by not hitting it quite right (which I do frequently), and as long as you're still maintaining the rhythm of the tune, nobody cares. If you screw up a triplet, then you've screwed up the actual tune. And someone will probably notice.

  10. #32

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I think your post is gonna cause debate.

  11. #33
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by Picking Dick View Post
    I think your post is gonna cause debate.
    Well, I prefaced it with "the way I think of it," so it's not like I'm writing a manual here. I'd be interested to hear different opinions, but this is how I've heard the terms used by others as well.

  12. #34
    Registered User liestman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I personally like all of the input here, from foldedpath's viewpoint and all the others, especially appreciating Niles Hokkanen's ABC example, which really does demonstrate nicely how the actual written notes come out (Niles, I sort of knew you in the 80s when you taught improv at Augusta!). But the main problem we have here is that there is no governing body for definition of these terms. Maybe the UN needs to form a panel or something. Anyway, it all emphasizes the importance of listening to great traditional players and going from that as to what things should sound like, and then realizing that how we write them on paper is pretty immaterial, except that it can confuse outsiders! Listening is the key, paper is secondary.
    John Liestman -
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  13. #35

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by whistler View Post
    Ultimately, it doesn't much matter what terms you use for what, as long as you are teaching the technique and style well. Your definitions make a meaningful distinction as well (I choose the terms static and moving or running treble/triplet for that).

    The problem is mainly on forums like this one, where people use terms casually in the assumption that everyone understands it the same way. The thing is, triplet is a long established term in the language of classical music theory and carries with it a particular definition; treble is a less rigidly defined term, so I don't think anyone can tell you you are using it incorrectly. (Treble has, of course, a completely different and unrelated meaning in music theory - but different enough that confusion is unlikely to arise.)
    Shows what I know, I'd never even heard of the word "treble" until reading this thread.

    First time I heard the word "triplets" was when taking piano lessons a zillion years ago, but no mention of "trebles". I wonder if my piano teacher was deficient? Or maybe I just didn't get to a sufficiently advanced point in my piano studies?

    Somewhere along in that time period I was also playing various 3-notes-in-the-space-of-2 in Irish music (by ear, to start with) without realizing there was different terminology for it. Later on, seeing the notes written on paper, made it easier to visualize the timing.

    In any case, this thread has some interesting & enlightening info. Never too old to learn something new, I guess.

  14. #36
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by liestman View Post
    I personally like all of the input here, from foldedpath's viewpoint and all the others, especially appreciating Niles Hokkanen's ABC example, which really does demonstrate nicely how the actual written notes come out (Niles, I sort of knew you in the 80s when you taught improv at Augusta!). .
    But you defected to the Northumbrian pipes! Hey I always dug Billy Pigg, and Kathryn Tickell is great. I'm one to talk about defection.... playing/practicing concert flute 95% of the time nowadays!

    NH

  15. #37
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by JL277z View Post
    Shows what I know, I'd never even heard of the word "treble" until reading this thread.
    Not surprising! I could be wrong, but I think that term treble started as a way to describe "fast triplet based" banjo ornaments in Irish trad, and it sort of leaked into mandolin technique when playing the same music. I've never heard that term used by fiddlers, flute players, or pipers. It's a plectrum instrument thing, as far as I can tell.

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  17. #38
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I’ve really only heard ‘treble’ used for three of the same note, like you say it’s a plucky thing.
    I tend to drop them in where I‘d normally draw a long, fast bow to give a bit of a lift or a burst of life, rather than just a single ‘doink’ that disappears, which can be a bit comical in some places, especially if there’s noone on the bow or a blow to fill the gap.
    Dotted crotchets & their equivalents are prime targets for me.
    I like that you can shape them without shifting off the note, so you’re not introducing anything that moves when it shouldn’t.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

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