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Thread: Mandolin Ornaments

  1. #1

    Default Mandolin Ornaments

    When playing Irish Slow Airs or Songs on a mandolin does one play triplets? Pull offs? Hammer Ons? Slides? Anything else?

    I've decided to follow that road for a while and do jigs, reels, etc on my Irish banjo.

  2. #2
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Just my opinion, but I think triplet ornaments (or "trebles") work best on the dance tempo tunes like jigs and reels, and don't work well on slower tunes. The treble ornament is played with a quick burst of the pick, at a speed that's independent of the actual tempo of a tune. If your trebles are really tight, they won't even have a discernible pitch. So it can sound a bit weird to my ears, if that quick burst is inserted in a slower tune like a metered air, slow-tempo song, or "slow reel."

    Other mandolin articulations can work well at slow tempos. I like to use slides, pull-offs, and hammer-ons to get some added expression in slower tunes. A mandolin has very little sustain, so for some of the slower tunes like metered airs, I'll usually switch to my octave mandolin, which has tons of sustain due to the longer scale. I've also been trying to learn Irish flute for the slow stuff.

    And now, a slightly more controversial topic: tremolo as an ornament.

    Opinions here will vary on whether tremolo -- constant, rapid and smooth up-and-down picking -- is a good idea for slow airs, especially the really slow airs with variable (rubato) tempo. It's a form originally intended for the human voice, and adapted to be played on sustaining instruments like pipes, flutes, and fiddles.

    My personal opinion is that mandolin tremolo doesn't work well for a rubato/Sean Nós air. No other instrument commonly used for Irish trad does anything like that. The music is traditionally based on pure, sustained tones, so fiddlers avoid using constant, heavy Classical vibrato and Sean Nós singers use a pure, unvarying tone that's very different from Classical voice technique. So to my ears, mandolin tremolo sounds "outside" the tradition, a little too close to Italian or Classical mandolin technique. If I want to play a slow/rubato air, I'll switch to octave mandolin or (better) a flute with the sustain to carry the tune.

    Opinions vary widely on this however, and I want to stress that this is just my opinion. If you like the sound of constant mandolin tremolo on airs, to make up for the lack of sustain, then go for it.

  3. #3
    Mandolin user MontanaMatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I have a mandolin ornament for my Christmas tree!
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  5. #4
    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I use all of those ornaments mentioned previously but triplets with discretion.

  6. #5
    Registered User liestman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I am with Richard and really think slow airs with a BIT of chord melody style are wonderful on mandolin!
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  7. #6

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Well, thanks for the info, guys. I've been playing Irish music for a long time on different flutes and whistles, but my embouchure's gittin' very old and a bit weak now. So I thought I'd try it with an Irish banjo and now the mando-banjo.

    It's comin' along, but the mb's a bit difficult for my clumsy old fingers to fret the tighter strings with any speed or accuracy. Also. I like Irish Slow Airs and Songs anyway.

    And MountainMatt, I have a Ukulele Christmas Tree ornament and a Tuba one, but no banjos or mandolins yet.

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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Just my opinion, but I think triplet ornaments (or "trebles") work best on the dance tempo tunes like jigs and reels, and don't work well on slower tunes..
    I agree


    Opinions here will vary on whether tremolo -- constant, rapid and smooth up-and-down picking -- is a good idea for slow airs, especially the really slow airs with variable (rubato) tempo.
    I see nothing inherently wrong with using tremolo on a slow air. But it rests on being able to be subtle with it - much of which is down to very good tremolo technique. A slow air played entirely in tremolo represents, for me, a misunderstanding of the genre but using tremolo on the odd note can be a welcome bit of variety. It does, however, require the ability to slip smoothly in and out of tremolo and to keep it within the dynamic range of the rest of the tune (playing tremolo quietly is not easy - and dramatic dynamic changes are not characteristic of the idiom). The 'space' afforded by letting a note ring and die away naturally (however short the sustain) can also be a powerful device.

    Personally, I rarely make use of tremolo (in any context) because my tremolo technique is terrible.

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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Just my opinion, but I think triplet ornaments (or "trebles") work best on the dance tempo tunes like jigs and reels, and don't work well on slower tunes.
    Reading the above comment again: I think triplets can be used effectively in slower tunes if the tune is rhythmic in nature – some of the slow- to mid-tempo O'Carolan tunes, for example – but less so for slow airs proper.

  11. #9

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by whistler View Post
    Reading the above comment again: I think triplets can be used effectively in slower tunes if the tune is rhythmic in nature – some of the slow- to mid-tempo O'Carolan tunes, for example – but less so for slow airs proper.
    Trebles and such are used often in rubato on wire harp, especially at the beginning of phrases, etc https://youtu.be/ziN_g43pP98
    ...I also use ornaments like this on the other instruments I play (slow airs, etc), but I couldn't say whether I've ever done so with the mandolin as I've not applied the mandolin in this style. Theoretically I suppose it could be effective, but I haven't any practical experience in so doing.

  12. #10
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by whistler View Post
    A slow air played entirely in tremolo represents, for me, a misunderstanding of the genre but using tremolo on the odd note can be a welcome bit of variety. It does, however, require the ability to slip smoothly in and out of tremolo and to keep it within the dynamic range of the rest of the tune (playing tremolo quietly is not easy - and dramatic dynamic changes are not characteristic of the idiom).
    It's true that dramatic changes in dynamic range aren't characteristic, but there can still be a degree of dynamics, depending very much on the instrument. When a piper plays "Port na bPúcaí" like this example by Cillian Vallely, there are no dynamics due to the nature of the instrument. On flute, fiddle, or box there is more dynamic expression possible, like this example on box by Tony MacMahon (fast forward to 1:25 for the tune, but his earlier comments are interesting).

    Quote Originally Posted by whistler View Post
    Reading the above comment again: I think triplets can be used effectively in slower tunes if the tune is rhythmic in nature – some of the slow- to mid-tempo O'Carolan tunes, for example – but less so for slow airs proper.
    Right, that's an important distinction. The term "air" gets tossed around to mean two different things -- slow tunes with a regular tempo, and slow airs with irregular tempo. The first type is something like Hector the Hero (a lament, actually) or O'Carolan tunes. You can slowly tap your foot to it, and it can be played by a group in a session without going off the rails.

    What I think of as a slow air is something where the tempo varies to indicate emotional expression, and you can't tap your foot to it. Like the Port na bPúcaí examples above. It's deadly to attempt one of these as a group effort in a session (although it doesn't stop people from trying), because everyone starts and stops at a different point in the tune. It's meant to be an emotional, solo performance.

    So if you play a slow air solo on mandolin, you're really out there and exposed. Whatever technique you use, tremolo or not, has to be good enough to do justice to a type of tune that's considered something of a "high art" compared to playing the dance tunes. Which is why I don't even try these particular tunes on mandolin; I'm nowhere near good enough to pull it off!

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  14. #11

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Thanks for posting TM's clip - Ive posted it many times here (and session, chiff & fipple, et al) as it so eloquently expresses aspects of the music (and my own feelings about the music) and culture. As a player especially of slow airs and such, I find TM's remarks more and more relevant the more I'm involved in the music. There are qualities of the genre/form that do warrant such reverence and feelings by its players.

  15. #12

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Re f-path's last paragraph: the mandolin's a good session instrument; not so much a *solo* instrmnt (in *this* genre/form). But if it IS good for you in that idiom, more power to you. (!)

    As f-path says, these forms (sean nos, pibroch, slow air, lament, et al) were typically solo forms (voice, harp, pipe/wind..) You folks who play solo mndln, and may dabble with these - all kudos to you. Me I just went to others to play the music, and having an affinity with the solo forms anyway..

    *btw, a word more.. the slower the music, the more prominent and important is *space* in the music. Theres incredible opportunity for expression, even without "playing notes." Ornaments are especially effective - because they stand out more. You can do very subtle things with time, accent, phrasing, etc...the nature of the form expands the canvas, so to speak. https://youtu.be/wLE7az4P49c
    Last edited by catmandu2; Oct-01-2017 at 2:57pm.

  16. #13

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    At the beginning of this post. I was asking about triplets as in the banjo ornament. Anyway, I also know that many Irish mandolinists don't care much for them, but we've somehow gotten off the track here and are now talking about tremolo which, incidentally, I'm also trying to learn toplay well. But even I have doubts about playing it with Irish music.

  17. #14

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    ?

    There're a number of things there in respect to ornaments such as triplets/trebles.

    Wrt to T/T in mandolins, I don't particularly like much use of it (in comparison to banjos, harps, fiddles, others..) as the articulation just isn't as, well, articulate - given the double-coursed strings.

  18. #15
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I prefer fiddle to mandolin in Irish music, especially for the slow stuff. And somehow it seems that mandolins' real strength is in creating a chord accompaniment that really has rhythm and punch. (as in bluegrass too). Dervish is a great example. But Irish harp to me is an example to follow in O'Carolan and I try to make the mandolin sound like a harp in playing that stuff. And though I like chords for jigs and reels is is nice to play the ornaments along with another instrument, like a fiddle or flute.

    Doc Rossi has a whole book and CD dedicated to teaching ornaments in Irish Music "Irish Mandolin: Learn how to play the Irish Way ASAP".

    Check out the third tune the Cordal Jig. He's got lots of ornaments there.


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  20. #16
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Wrt to T/T in mandolins, I don't particularly like much use of it (in comparison to banjos, harps, fiddles, others..) as the articulation just isn't as, well, articulate - given the double-coursed strings.
    I dunno... mandolins can do a pretty tight triplet with practice. Listen to what Marla Fribish does, just one example.

    Here's a short clip I've posted before, where I'm playing an example of how to fake a roll with hammers and pulls (where the melody goes lower), but with a bunch of treble ornaments too. Very rough recording, a little rushed in tempo, but I think the trebles are okay. This is actually a mix of triplets in the actual melody and treble ornaments that aren't written as part of the melody (Tony Molloy's jig):

    http://ptjams.com/mb/mp3/Mandolin%20Roll%20Demo.mp3

    This illustrates what I meant earlier about "trebles" being so quick that they're almost a percussive ornament, and therefore difficult to insert into a slower-tempo tune.

  21. #17

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Oh yeah, they "work," only that in comparison to the others they aren't as crisp - and therefore perhaps not as effective. Here's a stretch analogy: the banjo (and the wire harp, given it is a "striking" instrument rather than a "plucked") are like a snare drum, whereas the mandolin(s) is like tom-tom, or marimba : ) ...anyway, that's kind of how I feel them, wrt their relative efficacy in percussive ornament like triplet/treble.. These are just comparisons to illustrate given characterstics of each, but is also why some instruments are given to certain idioms/styles, and others not.

    I experience them as a percussive element, but I don't share the view that they're not effective in slow music (which is why I gave the clarsach examples - where they're employed liberally, and in slow and rubato tempos)
    Last edited by catmandu2; Oct-01-2017 at 8:53pm.

  22. #18

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I still don't understand the difference between triplets and trebles. I think it was explained to me once, but the post got all controversial and a debate started. So, anyway, what's the difference?

  23. #19
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Quote Originally Posted by Picking Dick View Post
    I still don't understand the difference between triplets and trebles ... what's the difference?
    In strict musical nomenclature, a triplet is three notes of equal duration, played in the time of two notes. For example, in a sequence of four 1/8-notes (quavers), if you were to replace two of those notes with a group of three notes, played slightly quicker in order to fit them into the same time period, those three notes are called a triplet. A triplet can be at any tempo and can be an ornament or an integral part of a melody or rhythm.

    A treble is a kind of ornament that also involves playing three notes in the time of two and those three notes could, in theory, be of equal duration, which would make them a triplet proper. But, more often than not, when this ornament is employed by plectrum instrument players (and also fiddlers) in Irish music, the notes are not of exactly equal length, but tend towards something like two 1/16-notes and an 1/8-note. This is why a distinction is made.

    Examples of true triplets being used in traditional music are typically in hornpipes - e.g. bar 1 of The Rights of Man, bar 4 of The Harvest Home, the enitire 3rd part of The Belfast Hornpipe or 2nd part of The Independent. In these cases, the triplets are more or less integral to the melody and can be (although may not necessarily be) played as three equal notes each, which is in keeping with the 'swung' rhythm of the whole tune.

    Personally, I don't have too much of a problem with interchanging the words triplet and treble in traditional music - to an experienced trad player, the difference is largely a matter of 'feel'. But some players with a strictly classical background might be inclined to interpret the word triplet according to its proper meaning and attempt to play all trebles as strict triplets. My feeling as to why trebles are not usually played as three equal notes is that it simply does not serve the rhythm well. Beyond the basic pulse of a jig or reel, there is the characteristic rhythm, with 1/8-notes as its basic unit (although these 1/8-notes are rarely of exactly equal length); inserting a treble breaks up this rhythm just a little, but playing a triplet proper can pull the tune a little too far from the rhythm, so that it starts to lose momentum.

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  25. #20
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Paste the following ABC code into the window at http://mandolintab.net/abcconverter.php
    to generate standard notation and a midi file.
    You'll hear the difference. A "treble" is a 3-note roll (the two 16ths and the note it feeds into) while a triplet is a 4-note roll (the triplet and the note it feeds into)

    X:1
    T: "Trebles" vs Triplets
    T:
    C: Niles Hokkanen
    M:4/4
    L:1/8
    K:D
    Q:1/2=
    W:© 2017 Niles Hokkanen
    C: Niles Hokkanen (Oct. 02, 2017)
    |:""DEFD ""EFGE |""FGAF ""EFGE |""D8 "" :|
    T: Trebles (16th note rolls)
    |:""DEFD ""EFGE |""FGAF ""EFGE ||\
    ""D/D/EFD ""E/E/FGE |""F/F/GAF ""E/E/FGE |""D8 "" :|
    |:""DEFD ""EFGE |""FGAF ""EFGE ||\
    ""DEF/F/D ""EFG/G/E |""FGA/G/F ""EFG/F/E |""D8 "" :|]
    T: Triplets
    |:""DEFD ""EFGE |""FGAF ""EFGE |\
    ""(3DDE FD ""(3EEF GE |\
    ""(3FFG AF ""(3EEF GE |""D8 "" :|
    |:""DEFD ""EFGE |""FGAF ""EFGE |""DE (3FED ""EF (3GFE |\
    ""FG (3AGF ""EF (3GFE |""D8 "" :|]
    |:""(3GGG G2 ""(3BBBB2 |""(3ddd d2 ""(3ggg g2 :|z8||
    T: "Trebles" in 6/8
    M:6/8
    |:""DEF ""EFG |""FGA ""GAB |A6|||
    ||""DE/E/F ""EF/F/G |""FG/G/A ""GA/A/B |A6||
    ||""E/E/FG ""F/F/GA ""G/G/AB A/A/Bc|B6||
    || ""FGA/A/ ""GAB/B/|""ABc/c/ ""Bcd/d/ |""cde ""d3-|d6 :|

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  27. #21
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    That sounds too complicated for me!
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  29. #22
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I was always taught that a treble involves the same note and a triplet is ascending or descending notes.
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    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Marla Fibish (who I consider to be my model Irish Trad Mandolinist) uses a triplet/treble in this slow tune, The Parting.



    She plays a Gibson Model A which has good sustain - that helps- but most of her music comes from good technique including an occasional triplet in a slow tune.

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  32. #24

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    Pickin-D (op), I would ask - as a player of the music, how *you* would go about deciding and applying ornaments on the instrument. The reason I mentioned all of the harp and stuff is to present context for such a basis of determination, as the form (slow air, et al) derives greatly from (old) tradition (like, prior to widespread mndln and bnjo use), so you're just interpreting/adapting the music to the mndln anyway.. And theres SO much room for interpretation and expression in slow music. So I would say, how would you play it? How do you feel it? Every instrument is different, and this is opportunity for liberties and expression in the music.

  33. #25

    Default Re: Mandolin Ornaments

    I must confess, that when I played Irish music on my other instruments, I mostly played it the way I heard it with only a bit of my own interpretation.

    I'm still struggling with my banjo and mandolin, so I'm just overjoyed to get the melody notes correctly. But it'll come, if I live long enough and remain arthritis free.

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