Some advice needed for reading music.

[MamiAVes]

Hey y'all, first official post here.

I want to learn Standard Notation but I've got a big problem. I've got a brain disorder where I am incapable of visualizing, or imagining things in my head. Most instruments I have to try and learn by ear, as I have never been able to get the grasp of reading it.

Any tips for building up that muscle memory, or perhaps breaking down the sheet music into something I can play? Very basic tunes I can do, but once I get into more complicated pieces (think outside beginner level), I don't have the ability to visualize what will come ahead, and that puts a big damper on my learning.

Does anybody else have this issue, and how do you work around it?

Thanks!

MamiAVes

[Tom Wright]

If you can remember a song to sing it, you can do the same with music learned from notation. Most of the music I've learned from print do not reside in my memory as an image, although some does. The music that is an image is also in my melody-memory, and the image only comes from having stared at the same page a hundred times (like a Beethoven symphony I played that many times from the same edition).

If you can read words you can read music. It takes practice for both. Once you have played a tune or sing enough times you will remember it without "imagining" it. Do you imagine the words you're reading here? Reading music is not an instinct, but a learned skill. How long have you worked at playing from the page? I would guess it takes most folk at least a year to begin to feel they sort of know how, and another few years to become adept at playing at sight.

Some tunes may lodge in your memory after only a couple of hearings, but reading is not a built-in talent for anyone. Some are quicker at matching the visual with a remembered audio sequence, but all can learn to read, as all can learn to read words, with a range of ease from quick to slow.

[MamiAVes]

Thank you for your response!

No, I cannot imagine words as I read them. I'll try and explain it better. If you had to describe your spouse, a mental picture forms in your head. But for me, I cannot form mental pictures. So I can't daydream, or imagine. I have read some musicians keep the scale in their heads as they play, but I cannot do that either. I am very bad at second guessing myself when I try to learn things visually.

I am really good at recognizing music, but if you were to ask me to put the notes together on a scale in my mind, it would be an impossible task for me.

I hope I have clarified a bit better!

- MamiAVes

[bratsche]

I'm going to find this thread interesting to follow. Not because I have anything constructive to suggest, but because I find it fascinating to read how other people's brains work. I can't suggest anything, because I have the exact opposite scenario going on with mine - I cannot not visualize! For example, I first visualized this post in response to yours as an idea-picture, which I then had to laboriously translate into words, if that makes sense. I don't typically think in words unless I absolutely have to, because that's too slow.

Oh, and welcome to the Cafe!

bratsche

[Mandoplumb]

I agree that if you can read words, you can learn to read music. There is 26 letters and only 7 notes. I can't see why you would have to have a mental picture to read music any more than to read words. I was being over simplistic with the 26 and 7 but really one works very similar to the other. Don't mean to be a smart a## but it's a self fulling prophecy to take the attitude " I can't"

[Michael Neverisky]

If you can read words you can read music.

I have no doubt that this statement, and the additional details in Tom Wright's reply, are true. It is reading and writing a language, just like the one you and I are using right now, English, to communicate with one another. But you have to start out slowly, just like we did in elementary school with our picture books.

If I show you this:




And tell you the name is "C" and ask you to play the second string, third fret and hold the note for a count of four. Then I show you this:

Attachment 161133

And tell you it's a "C sharp" and ask you to play the second string, fourth fret and again hold the note for a count of four.



If you can then play what you see below, reading from left to right just the way you are reading this, you have begun to learn to read music:

[Beanzy]

I’d start as simply as possible and relate it to the lines, forget about any exceptions that exist but may confuse, you need some pretty good anchor points that you don’t have to turn into images.
Any refinements can be dealt with once the anchor points are solid.

Basic staff, no ledger lines above, no flats or sharps & leaving out your G course until the others are fixed

Top, middle & bottom line = first finger on e,a & d courses
Space below those = open string
Other spaces = third finger
Other lines = 4th finger

Just try to remember that (for first finger) on the skinny e courses you use the 1st fret& the others are 2nd
For placing the third finger I can only recommend you do it by ear as the methods I used starting out were all visual shapes.

Obviously those will change once sharps or flats get thrown in, but if you’re ok on the basics those will just be pulling back or reaching up a fret from your anchor points.

[MamiAVes]

Thank you all for the responses! I will definitely go into this with more confidence.

I will say, the hardest part for me is simply looking at the notes on the scale. Since I have essentially no visual recall, I feel like every time I look at a piece of music I am trying to learn the notes all over again! I'll put a bit more effort in and hope it sticks. Again, thanks for all the responses!

ETA: Mandoplumb, I mostly meant musicians who can look at a music sheet and keep it in their minds while they play, or making a visual of what notes they are playing as they do it. I can read very well but it took a lot of effort on my part, not being able to make mental images hampered me greatly in school. It's hard to explain to those that can visualize.

[Mandoplumb]

MamiAVes I did not mean to belittle your problem, I don't really understand, as you said, BUT I can see that even though difficult you did learn to read and I say that if you don't give up you'll learn to read music. Good luck.

[Michael Neverisky]

... musicians who can look at a music sheet and keep it in their minds while they play, or making a visual of what notes they are playing as they do it.

If it is of any comfort, skills of that nature belong to a very few highly skilled, or innately gifted musicians. I attended a prestigious conservatory in my youth and even among that population those abilities were acquired after years of work... prodigies notwithstanding.

[Louise NM]

While I don't have any experience with your particular problem, I'm thinking you may be just fine. Reading music doesn't take the same skill set as, for example, looking at a diagram of how to put something together, going from a line drawing on paper to the 3D pile of boards and screws in front of you. Would that be your worst nightmare come true?

It takes lots of practice for anyone, but eventually the connection between what you see on a page and which finger goes where becomes automatic. I don't find reading music while playing uses visualization, as far as I can tell, anyway. A quick look at a piece to see how difficult it might be could be a different story, but that's a secondary skill.

Good luck with this, and I hope you surprise yourself with how quickly it comes.

[Ivan Kelsall]

MamiAVes - If you can 'imagine' forward enough to construct meaningful sentences,then you can do it in other ways - it's just that you've not done it enough yet.

I really do admire your total honesty in describing your 'inabilities'. All you can really do is to try & in that,you're no different than the rest of us = some can,some can't !!.

I've described a couple of times on here,how i can come up with great ideas for 'new stuff',but when i try to build on the new melodies i've come up with,i end up totally forgetting the original melody line !.

One thing that you could do,is record everything that you play when you're practicing ie. ''you have a memory by proxy'',& see if that helps. I really don't know what recording 'whatevers' are available today,but they must be more convenient than the old methods. Try it & see how it turns out for you,& very good luck in your efforts,
Ivan

[Andy Hatfield]

In general, one thing adults forget about, is that kids spend a very long time reading very simple songs. Ever been to an 8th grade band concert? It's not that interesting. You could get a graded violin system meant for kids and spend 30 minutes a day for a year going through it like a kid would. Maybe even suzuki books or something like that. It's the repetition that makes it stick for most.

[fatt-dad]

Can you hum a tune or whistle? To me the larynx and lips are musical instruments. In this regard, your brain sort of forces a melody from your mouth. The dots of music are a way to both recall a melody and tell you what notes to play. It's very hard to see a C# on the musical staff, ask your mind, "Where's the C#?" look for the proper fret, press and pluck. It's "easier" to recall the melody via the notes and then, "Just play!"

It just takes practice.

f-d

[JonZ]

I used to teach special education, and many of my students were diagnosed as dyslexic or had other learning disabilities. I never did anything to remediate their disabilities, but I had them putting in a lot of minutes reading, and they improved significantly. I am not making light of the additional struggle, but I think practice is always the key.

[bobby bill]

One thing I would suggest not to do is to look at the music, try to name the note, and then try to find that named note on the fret board. That requires too many mental steps.

Rather, think in terms of scales and scale steps. I'm sure you can play a G major scale from the open G string to the third fret E. Just memorize one single home note - the D string fifth fret G which corresponds to second line from the bottom on the staff. It seems much more automatic to me to see other notes in relation to where they fit into the scale than to name them and then find the named note. It is easy to see that a note on the middle line of the staff is just two steps up from the home note G - the third of the G scale. Much quicker than thinking "every good boy deserves favor" . . . okay it's a B . . . now where the heck is that B.

This is kind of an over-simplification but I think it is how my brain works.

[DougC]

I find that there are many ways to view the problem. It seems that everyone has a different explanation for the same thing. Therefore my task is to find one that I understand and to somehow 'stick with it' with major amounts of effort and time. And have a 'long range' expectation of success. Heck, I think the rest of my life I will describe myself as student of music.

[MamiAVes]

I appreciate all of your advice. You are right, perhaps I have given up too easily when it comes to learning notation, or perhaps I am coming at it from the wrong angle. Recording myself is a very good idea, I think I'll even pick up some Work Books and plod through it. Dont worry Mandoplumb, I didn't take any offense to your comments!

Again, thanks for all the replies. Lovely community!

-MamiAVes

[Joel Glassman]

If you can't form pictures in your mind, can you do the following?
Look at the middle line of this music staff:

Its called "B" and indicates placing your first finger on the
A string 2nd fret. There is memory involved, but it is just
assigning a "named" place for your finger. It becomes "knowing"
rather than remembering. This requires practice though, to keep
the info at hand. Repetitive, "do it every day" practice...

[CES]

OP, I have a son with ADD, and his mind works completely differently than mine does. I can remember one point before we had him formally diagnosed when he was plodding through some homework that should have been easy/quick for him. He had music playing, was working on his computer, and wanted to turn on the TV. I made him turn off everything except the device he was using, thinking that eliminating distractions would help him concentrate. In fact, it had the opposite effect. His brain really does work better if there's a lot of "noise." It almost seems to occupy the seemingly "random and rapid-fire neuron firing," allowing the part of his brain focusing in his task at hand to perform less distracted. Completely opposite from how my brain works. Through education (for me, my wife, and my son) we've figured out a pretty good system for him, but it really was a revelation for me when it dawned on me that "quiet and undistracting" was anything but for him.

So, yes, it can be difficult for those of us without your unique quality to understand where you're coming from. There are some good suggestions above, and I agree that tons of practice will help, but you have to find the right kind of practice and approach for you. I've recently acquired a mandocello, and am working my way through a beginner cello book series. I already read treble clef reasonably well, so it's interesting to me how I'm processing the bass clef (which I used to read well for bass, but have gotten away from of late). I'm learning it almost like tab, relating the notes to fretboard positioning rather than necessarily thinking, "OK, this is a D." I'm trying to make the note connection as well, but that's slower going for me; hey, I'm old, alright!

Good luck as you work out the best way for you to learn this skill, and don't give up, you'll get there!

[JeffD]

I am a strong reader in first position. I am not sure how your particular condition would be a big handicap. In the reading part, the goal is to look at the staff and place the finger. There is no naming the note, no imagining the the staff, eventually just a finger response to what you see.

When I have learned a piece from sheet music, and I no longer need the music to play it, I don't envision or imagine the staff in my head, I just play the notes.

Your condition may make some of the in between learning steps a little more difficult, but because visualizing the staff in your head is not the goal and not involved in the successful out come, I am not sure it needs to be a big deal.

[Randi Gormley]

My system is a lot like JeffD's -- I don't visualize anything when i play. I see the note and automatically put my finger where the note says, as I automatically put my foot on one step and then the other without thinking what I'm doing. It's the same when I write -- I don't think "put this finger on this key" or "this is spelled thus-and-so" -- my fingers just go where my need is. I don't know if this is a simple learned response from years doing this or the way my mind works; I don't visualize a tatting, knitting or crochet pattern when I'm doing hand work. I look at the picture and follow the directions for each round until it becomes ingrained, and then I still look back to check stuff. I know it took me years to really understand maps and when I'm driving, I still can't figure out which direction I'm driving (anything in front of me is "north," for all I know!) But that doesn't keep me from driving. So I'm hopeful that your inability to visualize won't stop you from either playing the mandolin or learning to read music. I'll echo bobby bill -- don't think that you need to look at a note, read the note, visualize where it falls on the fretboard and then play it. A lot of us didn't do that anyway when learning to either play mandolin or read music. It's just one way to teach, not the only way.

[Pete Braccio]

I would suggest a book for you: Standard Notation for the Tab-Addicted Mandolinist by Debora Chen. It lays out an easy system to play in the first position. It’s self published, so you need to get it directly from her at http://www.stringthingm.com/Standard...Tab_Mando.html.

If I had to recommend just one bit of instructional material, it would be this book. I still prefer tab, but now the wide world of sheet music is open to me as well.

[MamiAVes]

So pleased at all of the replies and great responses! I have read each and every post and made a mental note of new things to try, and some new angles I should try as well.

Randi, I am also a knitter and use many counters to keep track of where I am in a pattern, I tend to get very lost when it comes to diagrams or written instructions as well.

I'll take a look at all of the books recommended and keep at it.

Thank you!!

-MamiAVes

[Ivan Kelsall]

From MamiAVes - "I mostly meant musicians who can look at a music sheet and keep it in their minds while they play, or making a visual of what notes they are playing as they do it.". I missed this in your earlier posts. I started off taking lessons on ''Classic banjo'' - Marches / Waltzes / Jigs etc. & i had to read music to do it. I picked it up very easily,but there was no waythat i could remember whole bars at a tiume - i had to 'read' while i played. To be able to remember written music the way that orchestral players do,takes a lot of time & as i once had a girlfriend who played in the Manchester (UK) Youth Orchestra, (Cello & Oboe),i know that many orchestral musicians have to do the same - read while they play.

Quote - "I am also a knitter ..." From that,can we assume that you are a lady of the female persuasion ?. I ask because i'ts not unknown for men to knit !. In fact,in the UK & possibly in the US,fishermen would knit their own sweaters. My mother was an incredible knitter & i used to marvel at the dexterity of her fingers. Alas,she now suffers with chronis arthritis,
Ivan