Playing Chords on an Oval Hole?

[soliver]

Hey gang,... I just wanted to reach out and ask for some technique pointers on playing chords on my Oval Hole flat top. I'm not asking for charts or chord diagrams, but for technique. I read on another thread somewhere where someone said "...when you play chop chords on an oval hole, you get mud" and while I don't necessarily agree with that, I can say that I don't ecompletely disagree. To that effect, I've been playing about 2 and a half years now on an Eastman MD305 which to my ears has a great bark... it just has that wonderful dry pointed chop that is pretty much what you expect out of a mandolin. Say what you will about Pac Rim instruments,... mine sounds great IMHO (thats a different discussion) ... If one were to ascribe an onomatopoeia to the sound, you'd think it were emphatically saying "SHUCK." Likewise, the same technique makes the Flatty say "humph"... just a lot less power. So I wonder how I need to approach it differently.

Now I completely understand that an oval hole is an instrument intended for different styles of music, so maybe the chop chord is the wrong method for the instrument... I just don't know what that method is. I have learned in a bluegrass/fiddle tune tradition, so the chop chord emphasized on the 2 & 4 beats has been the go to... So what is the preferred method for this little guy? I love the instrument and I want to do it justice, so what works for you?

[Kash]

You could try listening to the Blue Sky Boys for ideas. Lots of cool accompaniment going on, and you can clearly hear the mandolin. Lots of short arpeggios, some tremolo, etc.

[Mandoplumb]

Any pre-bluegrass country or "hillbillies" mandolin player did so much more than chop chords. Louvre brothers, Blue Sky boys, Morris brothers, even Bill and Charlie Monroe I don't know when or by who it was decided that all a bluegrass mandolin player can do is chop chop.be careful I"ll get on my soapbox and the BG police will get me

[Drew Streip]

I'd try using different chords and chord shapes to add color to your tunes. Quick suggestions would be hammer-ons and pull-offs to create "suspended" chords; using more passing tones (like sliding up 1 fret into your desired chord); and using arpeggios to emphasize the changes between chords. If I have time tonight, I'll post a video example.

[soliver]

Thanks guys... I fully understand that the BG mando is not all chop, chop, chop, boom-chuck, boom-chuck, boom-chuck but its not all breaks and melody either..... Buuuuuut --- what I'm getting at just as much as how to incorporate the oval hole into BG, (lets completely remove ourselves from the topic of BG for the moment) is in the realm of other genres (i.e. Waltz, OT and celtic), how does one utilize chording (other than chop) in other genres of music and what is your technique???

[Tobin]

Thanks guys... I fully understand that the BG mando is not all chop, chop, chop, boom-chuck, boom-chuck, boom-chuck but its not all breaks and melody either..... Buuuuuut --- what I'm getting at just as much as how to incorporate the oval hole into BG, (lets completely remove ourselves from the topic of BG for the moment) is in the realm of other genres (i.e. Waltz, OT and celtic), how does one utilize chording (other than chop) in other genres of music and what is your technique???

My technique depends on what it is I'm playing, and who I'm playing it with. If I'm chording on my vintage F4 while my wife is playing a melody on her mandola, I will probably strum the chords, possibly with providing a bass note on each downbeat like a guitar would do, or somehow try to fill out the sound with some bass. But if there's a guitar in the mix, that just gets lost. So I'll stick more to closed-position chords where I can play around with double-stops and arpeggios as "fill" instead of "rhythm/backup". Don't be afraid to chop on an oval-hole, either. Sure, it's not going to have a "bark" like an F5, but it still sounds like a chop.

Take a look at this video. Each of them uses a variety of chording styles as they jam together on a couple of old F4s. Including some light chop chords.

[JeffD]

You could try listening to the Blue Sky Boys for ideas. Lots of cool accompaniment going on, and you can clearly hear the mandolin. Lots of short arpeggios, some tremolo, etc.

That is great advice. The Blue Sky Boys are the Harvard and Yale of old time mandolin.

[JeffD]

Thanks guys... I fully understand that the BG mando is not all chop, chop, chop, boom-chuck, boom-chuck, boom-chuck but its not all breaks and melody either..... Buuuuuut --- what I'm getting at just as much as how to incorporate the oval hole into BG, (lets completely remove ourselves from the topic of BG for the moment) is in the realm of other genres (i.e. Waltz, OT and celtic), how does one utilize chording (other than chop) in other genres of music and what is your technique???

Yes outside of BG chopping is not usually a good idea.

The mandolin is capable of anything and everything. Here is one of favorite singer song writers, and his mandolin work is really delightful.

[JeffD]

With waltzes it is kind of fun. If it is a more romantic kind of waltz, and I am not playing melody, I'll do arpeggios - and slow strum chords. If it is a more "cowboy" kind of waltz I will do three chords on the two up beats. Like "down, chunk-a-chunk, down chunk-a-chunk".

Really the mandolin is as versatile as the guitar, and there are about as many strumming patterns. I have seen folks do a sort of ukulele type of downbeat thing that can be effective.

[DavidKOS]

what I'm getting at just as much as how to incorporate the oval hole into BG, (lets completely remove ourselves from the topic of BG for the moment) is in the realm of other genres (i.e. Waltz, OT and celtic), how does one utilize chording (other than chop) in other genres of music and what is your technique???

Chords on mandolin know know genre or style or what instrument they are played on.

Just learn your chords, learn to play many variations of rhythm patterns, and you can play ANY music on ANY mandolin.

Anyone that claims that you need a specific instrument to play a style of music is somewhat limited in their musical outlook.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

I will apologize first as I mean to offend no one.But personally, I think chop chords sound like mud on any mandolin. I can't for the life of me even determine what chord is being chopped without observing the players fretting hand. I know the chop chord has it's place in some genres of music, but those are genres I avoid hearing. I am not saying that chopping chords isn't a skill. It is, and one that I never strived to learn. But if I ever get to the point where I no longer feel challenged, I may give it a try. However, I know I will always feel challenged.
As they say "different strokes for different folks".
And, as always, just my humble opinion.

[Mandobart]

....I read on another thread somewhere where someone said "...when you play chop chords on an oval hole, you get mud" and while I don't necessarily agree with that, I can say that I don't ecompletely disagree....

As an owner and player of four oval hole mando family instruments, I completely disagree with this statement.

[journeybear]

Chop is a technique, not a characteristic inherent in one type of instrument or another. Chop is a quick light strum with the picking hand and a quick subsequent release of tension with the fretting hand. That has nothing to do with the instrument, but only the playing of it.

I prefer oval holes myself - except for those thirty years when my main instrument was an F-12. I'm actually kind of glad it was stolen, so I found my way back to what I started out with, a plain A pumpkin. I play more blues than bluegrass, folk, rock, and country, too, and ai like the low-end push and the way all the strings ring. Listen to the sound I get from strumming in the song I posted on this thread. Even without my Baggs DI/pre-amp, it's ringing pretty nicely. Granted, you're talking about chops and this ain't that just about the opposite, in fact - but I already said all I need to on the subject above. I'm more concerned with pulling the best sound out of my instrument.That should be the goal always.

[soliver]

As an owner and player of four oval hole mando family instruments, I completely disagree with this statement.

I take it then that you have success with chopping on your Oval holes?... Do you employ a different strategy at all?

Journeybear, I understand that chop is a technique, but given how the characteristics of the instrument effect the characteristics of the resulting sound, one has to approach it differently... what I’m looking for here are methods by which to get good tone playing chords on an oval hole. I’m not necessarily looking for “how to chop on an oval hole”... just sayin’

[Mandobart]

I take it then that you have success with chopping on your Oval holes?... Do you employ a different strategy at all?

Journeybear, I understand that chop is a technique, but given how the characteristics of the instrument effect the characteristics of the resulting sound, one has to approach it differently... what I’m looking for here are methods by which to get good tone playing chords on an oval hole. I’m not necessarily looking for “how to chop on an oval hole”... just sayin’

I think maybe you're focusing a little too much on the type of soundhole and possibly forgetting the other factors affecting tone such as bracing, tonewood, is the fretboard flat or elevated, where does the neck join the body, etc. My Morris mandolin has an oval hole, with a single transverse brace, an elevated fretboard and a 15 fret body join. As a result chopping on it sounds more bluegrassy than on my 10 string oval holed mandola with x bracing, flat fingerboard and 12 fret join. I can only repeat the basics - loose pick grip, thick (> 2.0 mm), quick crisp wrist action, coordinated right and left hand to chop then let up on the left hand.

[journeybear]

I guess I don't understand. Whether or not you are interested in playing a chop chord or just getting your instrument to sound the best it can, it's usually advisable to use crisp, clear fingering. All else should follow.

The ringing chords I prefer typically include an open string or two. This helps counteract the tendency of the mandolin's resonance toward decay. Here is an example:

[Jill McAuley]

"Buuuuuut --- what I'm getting at just as much as how to incorporate the oval hole into BG, (lets completely remove ourselves from the topic of BG for the moment) is in the realm of other genres (i.e. Waltz, OT and celtic), how does one utilize chording (other than chop) in other genres of music and what is your technique???"

As someone who exclusively plays irish trad music on my oval hole MTO I don't utilize chording, or at least not in the way you may be thinking. I will incorporate double stops or two finger chords for variation in a tune but otherwise stick to playing pure melody.

[soliver]

Thanks Mandobart. That’s new information to me... I’ve read in (or maybe I assumed from reading) that Oval hole Instruments are more appropriate for Celtic and old time because the sound and tone they generate is more resonant. I may have translated that to mean that they do not chop well. Perhaps that’s just an assumption. Given all that, I can only say that my Flatiron is spruce over Maple with a non-elevated flat fretboard which is joined at the 13th fret and I’m unsure what kind of bracing it has... whatever way that effects it’s chop, it requires a different approach than my Eastman because the same method yields very different results.

Journeybear, sorry for the confusion... I suppose I was begging the question in that I was approaching the problem on the basis that chopping didn’t work well on an oval holed mando. I appreciate mandobart’s point that it’s more than a matter of the hole shape... I am a fan of the chop, so if it can be done, perhaps I just need to work on it.

I exchanged a couple PMs and some texts with Drew Streip and he offered up a few helpful suggestions so I plan to work on a few new techniques as well as to continue to work on applying what I know.

[Mark Wilson]

I think in terms of percussive rhythm, adding what the song calls for. You can do that on a ukulele, flat top oval or whatever. I play my share of grass and fiddle tunes and Chop and Bark never enter my mind.

[Ausdoerrt]

How about open chords? I mean, you can still play (then silence) them on 2 and 4 for the rhythm to replace the chop. You don't get the "thump", but the idea is similar.

You also can invent all sorts of crazy chords, use arpeggiated chords, drones etc. Listen to Andy Irvine, for example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNcEgTTCXY



But then yea, you will have to play more melodic stuff on an oval flat top, that's what it's for You can still make cool stuff with it, just gotta get out of the BG paradigm. Here's something I cooked up, for example: https://shamrocks.bandcamp.com/track/kiltartan-cross

In the song, I'm playing mostly rhythm, which is either 1) arpeggiated chords built on drones or 2) open chords. It's same rhythm as guitar, but where guitar plays "stock' chords, I'm often adding the 7th to spice things up.

Hopefully this gives you some ideas. Don't be afraid to experiment and move out of the BG comfort zone!

[Mandoplumb]

I think maybe you're focusing a little too much on the type of soundhole and possibly forgetting the other factors affecting tone such as bracing, tonewood, is the fretboard flat or elevated, where does the neck join the body, etc. My Morris mandolin has an oval hole, with a single transverse brace, an elevated fretboard and a 15 fret body join. As a result chopping on it sounds more bluegrassy than on my 10 string oval holed mandola with x bracing, flat fingerboard and 12 fret join. I can only repeat the basics - loose pick grip, thick (> 2.0 mm), quick crisp wrist action, coordinated right and left hand to chop then let up on the left hand.

Someone should have told Mr. Monroe, the father of the chop chords, that he couldn't do it with a flat fingerboard. Personally I can't see how the shape of the fingerboard affects a chop.

[Mandobart]

Someone should have told Mr. Monroe, the father of the chop chords, that he couldn't do it with a flat fingerboard. Personally I can't see how the shape of the fingerboard affects a chop.

You are misunderstanding the terms. I'm not talking flat vs radiused fingerboard (shape). I'm talking elevated off the body vs fingerboard flat on the body (position). Bill Monroe's 1923 F5 certainly has an elevated fretboard. And yes this does affect the tone.

[Mandoplumb]

You are misunderstanding the terms. I'm not talking flat vs radiused fingerboard (shape). I'm talking elevated off the body vs fingerboard flat on the body (position). Bill Monroe's 1923 F5 certainly has an elevated fretboard. And yes this does affect the tone.

You're fight I misunderstood the term. Agree Monore's Loar did have elevated fingerboard and that it affects sound especially when popping chords.

[jesserules]

Seems to me there are about as many ways to play chords on an oval hole mandolin as there are to play chords on a round (or oval)hole guitar.

Am I missing something?

[fatt-dad]

I do play more open chords along with my guitar buddy (i.e., when he solos). I use four-finger chords, but I don't chop them. I use cross picking drones against a melody. Stuff like that.

I really have spent so much more time on melody, you'd listen to my chording and think I just started. In general, I don't know for oval hole in bluegrass. No reason not to do it though?

f-d