Elderly Beginning Mandolin Outfit

[Ron McMillan]

Since I have no reason to doubt anything that Scott says, I'd anticipate the disappearance of the brand before too long. There are plenty of fine instruments coming out of Asia from other companies, and when standards drop, the customer becomes virtually irrelevant and the market is treated with contempt, the writing is on the wall.

[pheffernan]

When talking about new instruments (used is another whole discussion), is there much made in the US for less than 2K?

The underutilized flattop: https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/115477#115477

[Austin Bob]

A very common question to the forum is from a new member asking what mandolin to buy in a specific price range. My response is always the same: call one of the sponsors of the site and ask for recommendations. Why, because things change. Last years model may not be available, or maybe there's a new shipment from another company that is a better deal. Or, as in the case with The Loar, the instrument has changed to where it's no longer a good purchase.

Things change in the music industry at fairly regular pace. This issue above the The Loar models has been repeated by other manufactures, and at many different price points, and is not a surprise to me, but it's still good to bring this to light so that other members will know of the changes at TL company.

[fatt-dad]

There are, "Aria Pro II" mandolins that are great! I mean hand carved, solid wood, structurally stable. I had one - a PM 780. It was so great, I bought another Pro II. It was not from the same family.

So, to Austin Bob's point, things seem to change in manufacturing, branding, etc.

Interesting thread!

f-d

[Austin Bob]

During the mid-1970s, I was a Product Manager for a consumer products division of a Fortune 500 company. One memorable heated discussion with the VP of Marketing involved my pointing out the shortcomings and the need to modify a product that was starting down the production line. The VP quickly cut me off with the statement, "If you remember anything, remember this: Products are meant to be sold, not used. Your number one loyalty is to the stockholder, not to the customer."

One of the best talks by a Senior VP that I've ever heard was to say that a good company should look at employees, customers, and stockholders as equal sides of a triangle. If one side gets too much, or too little focus, the other sides will suffer, and that can put the company in jeopardy. Made much more business sense to me than you're VP's statement.

[Folkmusician.com]

It would be very interesting to know the actual units shipped to online big box retailers vs. the mom and pop stores. It would probably tell you all you need to know about modern business practices.

I have a lot of these numbers and I can tell you, it is staggering. At least a couple of years back, Guitar Center/Musicians Friend), had a 32% market share in the industry. As scary as this sounds, I have numbers from several people that are in charge of the Amazon accounts. I am told that Amazon accounts for right around 50% of all their business. This swings toward things other than mandolins and holds especially true of things like cases and accessories where Amazon excels. They are doing strong numbers in low to mid-tier mandolins as well. Don't think it ends there. One brand has been selling directly to Walmart as well.

I can see where a company would have to take this into account. The 80/20 rule to the extreme. Why service thousands of dealers, when 5 dealers can move the bulk of units? This is industry wide now. I don't like it, but I am not blind either.

I do want to say that not every mid-tier brand is abandoning their smaller dealers. Eastman has not jumped on the big box bandwagon. They are the only one that I am aware of. Thank you Eastman!

This is all happening in the lower price points. As we move up the rungs, this business model doesn't work and we see specialty shops still dominating. But can these specialty shops afford to lose the sales at the lower price points? I believe some can. We have some amazing shops that are very strong and should continue to do well.

[Caleb]

Interesting thread and topic for sure.

I have often wondered how many would-be mandolin players quit after getting an unplayable instrument out of the box from Amazon (kind of like those awful Esteban guitars from the infomercial back in the day).

When I think of all the hours of pure and simple joy that playing the mandolin has brought me, it makes me sad for those who had high hopes and got a bum deal. It seems to me that the bottom line of making instruments should be about helping others make music. Naïve, I suppose. I know the bills have to be paid, etc., but still.

And @Robert Fear, good on Eastman for holding the line!

[gtani7]

I don't have much to add to the thread, I've never been a huge fan of The Loar mandos (owned on lm300) but purchased 3 RK banjo's imported by Music Link's sister company, which have been ok to great.

BUT: I noticed recently there's an ebay seller selling The Loar and RK second quality product, which may or may not be a negative. Eastman never does this, as far as i can tell, Saga doesn't, Gold Tone does this on banjo classifieds. The RK (Recording king) listings which are for entry level thru $1.5k new instruments, all seem to describe rim delam which i don't see in the photos.

[gtani7]

and i have to say, once again, the Cafe is an amazing resource in the instrument world for getting the most value for your dollar and getting up and running on a wonderful but pretty tricky to play instrument. (I follow a lot of forums/newsgroups for keys/synth, woodwinds, strings, electronics/recording tech and other, i think i'm pretty knowledgeable about music forums)

Thanks to the mods and all responsible!

Interesting thread and topic for sure.

I have often wondered how many would-be mandolin players quit after getting an unplayable instrument out of the box from Amazon (kind of like those awful Esteban guitars from the infomercial back in the day).

When I think of all the hours of pure and simple joy that playing the mandolin has brought me, it makes me sad for those who had high hopes and got a bum deal. It seems to me that the bottom line of making instruments should be about helping others make music. Naïve, I suppose. I know the bills have to be paid, etc., but still.

And @Robert Fear, good on Eastman for holding the line!

[colorado_al]

and i have to say, once again, the Cafe is an amazing resource in the instrument world for getting the most value for your dollar and getting up and running on a wonderful but pretty tricky to play instrument. (I follow a lot of forums/newsgroups for keys/synth, woodwinds, strings, electronics/recording tech and other, i think i'm pretty knowledgeable about music forums)

Thanks to the mods and all responsible!

Saga does sell 2nds or repaired instruments on ebay and reverb dispatched out of their San Francisco location. They can be quite a good deal if you know what you're looking for and have some ability to do your own setup. It is a crapshoot however. 1 mandolin I bought from Saga had the most severe neck bend at the body that I've seen in a long time. Luckily, they took it back no questions asked.

[Cornfield]

During the mid-1970s, I was a Product Manager for a consumer products division of a Fortune 500 company. One memorable heated discussion with the VP of Marketing involved my pointing out the shortcomings and the need to modify a product that was starting down the production line. The VP quickly cut me off with the statement, "If you remember anything, remember this: Products are meant to be sold, not used. Your number one loyalty is to the stockholder, not to the customer."

That is so wrong on so many levels. I have sold new and used cars, and have worked for some first class a-holes. Nevwer any as bad as the VP you mentioned.
When I eventually founded my own businesses, I always stressed that our clients needs justified our existence.

[JamieJ]

It seems likely that Elderly Instruments simply wanted to offer a low cost package for beginners. They decided to substitute a Loar "Honey Creek" for the Kentucky KM 150 to keep their costs down. That was their decision and does not reflect poorly on Loar. Loar makes high quality, all wood mandolins, like Kentucky, but the goal was to keep the cost of this package down.

[allenhopkins]

...there's an ebay seller selling...second quality product, which may or may not be a negative. Eastman never does this, as far as i can tell...

Eastman will sell "B Stock" mandolins; Bernunzio had a bunch of MD315's a while ago, about $200 less than what he sold the un-blems for. Mostly tiny finish flaws.

Tangential anecdote: when the tailpiece on my Eastman MDC805 mandocello failed, I had little luck at first in getting it replaced under warranty; Eastman's rep was willing, but the next shipment of tailpieces from China, was all for guitars -- no eight-strings. The Eastman rep took a tailpiece of a 'cello that came in shipment, and sent it to me to replace mine, no charge. The new MDC805 this became "B Stock," I guess, until the right tailpiece finally was shipped.

This thread covers a wide range of topics: Loar's marketing and manufacturing decisions, the tension between mass marketing cheap stuff, and niche marketing quality, the pervasive influence of Musician's Friend/Guitar Center and Amazon in squeezing both manufacturers, and small retailers. If the day is coming (here already?) when you walk into one of the largest chain of instrument shops in the US, and find only one brand and one model of mandolin, then we have to wonder where the next cohort of learning mandolin players will find their instruments.

[mugbucket]

Eastman will sell "B Stock" mandolins; Bernunzio had a bunch of MD315's a while ago, about $200 less than what he sold the un-blems for. Mostly tiny finish flaws.

Tangential anecdote: when the tailpiece on my Eastman MDC805 mandocello failed, I had little luck at first in getting it replaced under warranty; Eastman's rep was willing, but the next shipment of tailpieces from China, was all for guitars -- no eight-strings. The Eastman rep took a tailpiece of a 'cello that came in shipment, and sent it to me to replace mine, no charge. The new MDC805 this became "B Stock," I guess, until the right tailpiece finally was shipped.

This thread covers a wide range of topics: Loar's marketing and manufacturing decisions, the tension between mass marketing cheap stuff, and niche marketing quality, the pervasive influence of Musician's Friend/Guitar Center and Amazon in squeezing both manufacturers, and small retailers. If the day is coming (here already?) when you walk into one of the largest chain of instrument shops in the US, and find only one brand and one model of mandolin, then we have to wonder where the next cohort of learning mandolin players will find their instruments.

That's easy. The MC Classifieds of course!

[allenhopkins]

That's easy. The MC Classifieds of course!...

Nice thought -- but it assumes they even know there's a Mandolin Cafe. When I think how clueless I was 47 years ago when I started trying to play mandolin -- and I was given -- free! -- a Gibson 'teens A-1 and a very nice bowl-back, found in my grandfather's attic when we cleaned it out, to put his house on the market after his death.

If I knew nothing about mandolin except that I saw or heard one somewhere and thought, "That's cool," and I wanted to try one -- and I walked into Guitar Center and all they had was the Crapptone Laminator, un-set-up and with rusty strings, which sounded like manure and probably smelled like it too -- I might be discouraged, and buy a ukulele instead.

And we all know where that leads...

[Mandolin Cafe]

The collapse of the mandolin world will not occur because one single company decided to dominate the bottom of the market.

The sky is not falling.

We'll all be OK. No, really.

[Br1ck]

The sad part to me is that the Loar had become one of the recommended brands in the lower to mid priced market. This is no easy accomplishment. Although I myself could not get over the name, there are many happy owners. If their quality diminishes or does not keep up with the competition is not a good thing.

But I agree, life goes on. Quality retailers will make their own choices based on their needs to service their customers.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

The sad part to me is that the Loar had become one of the recommended brands in the lower to mid priced market. This is no easy accomplishment. Although I myself could not get over the name, there are many happy owners. If their quality diminishes or does not keep up with the competition is not a good thing.

But I agree, life goes on. Quality retailers will make their own choices based on their needs to service their customers.

I am going to come out (I can't recall if I already have or not) as one who, yes, actually liked the name "The Loar." I had an LM 600. Got it from the Mandolin Store at a ridiculously low price (as in, I have not seen a 600 in the classifieds here at anything near that price), and it was my first real instrument. It was not perfect, but it was a real instrument. At that point the company seemed to be aspiring to something. But even before this thread got started, it was clear to me that in the past few years The Loar had not put out anything better than the Lm 600 and LM 700, and had instead directed its efforts at filling out the lower end of the market. I guess the writing is now on the wall. Soon, my local kijiji ads will not only be cluttered with people trying to resell their Epiphone and Fender mandolins, but also their The Loars.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I have, for some years now, recommended this as the best choice for a beginner who needs everything. It included the very impressive Kentucky KM-150 with the excellent Accss Stage One gig bag, and a bunch of accessories. Basically, they priced it for the mandolin and case and we're throwing in the picks, tuner, book, etc. for free. It was great bang for the buck in my opinion.

Now, a couple of days ago I noticed they have changed the kit. It's price is lower, and they now use the Loar "Honey Creek" instead of the Kentucky. The Kentucky was (and still is) all solid carved wood, while the "Honey Creek" is solid top with laminated sides and back. I have played both (well. I played the F style version of the Loar, not the A, but I would expect the tone to be similar). There is just no comparison whatsoever! Every Kentucky 150 I've played has had great tone that belies its price. The Loar with laminate body, on the other hands, sounds and plays like a brick with strings.

Now, I know that "The Loar" has its fans on our forum. Not trying to dis them at all. I'm just saying these laminated examples are miserable, not all Loars. And also to be fair I have been equally unimpressed with laminated mandolins from other makers.

I want to officially state, for the record so to speak, that I can no longer recommend this outfit. I wanted to be clear on this because I have recommended it so often in the past.

Not sure if it has been noted anywhere or when they reverted, but the Elderly Beginning Mandolin Outfit once again features the KM-150.
https://www.elderly.com/products/eld...andolin-outfit

[AgentKooper]

Ha, I didn't realize that I was reading a three year old thread until the last post! I've a relative newcomer to the mandolin world, only really been digging into it for the past couple years. Interesting to read the Loar-Guitar Center connection. The only mandolins I've ever seen in a Guitar center are Loars, and most of them were desperately out of tune. I'm not a GC hater at all. I like checking out whatever Gibsons, Martins, and Taylors they have in stock at a given time, and I'm looking forward to stores reopening. But they're not doing much in the mandolin space at all. I don't see Loars in the smaller shops around town -- the sub-$1,000 mandos there are all Eastmans and Kentuckys.

[Astro]

Im an elderly beginner but I didnt know about the mandolin outfit. Ive just been playing in shorts and tee shirts and sneakers. Should they all match?

[AgentKooper]

Im an elderly beginner but I didnt know about the mandolin outfit. Ive just been playing in shorts and tee shirts and sneakers. Should they all match?

I think this is what you're supposed to be wearing:

[stevojack665]

I think this is what you're supposed to be wearing:

I'm feeling pretty elderly too these days. And that's exactly what I wear!

[Astro]

I think this is what you're supposed to be wearing:

Makes you wonder what the advanced mandolin outfit looks like ?