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Thread: ear training

  1. #1

    Default ear training

    Question for all you ear training experts out there. So im focusing on trying to hear everything in terms of scale degrees (which i believe is a form of solfege). So in essence if im in the key of A major and someone plays an E and an F# i would identify them as the 5th and 6th scale degrees. So my question is this... if the chord changes from A major to D major( I-IV) am i still trying to hear the notes as the 5th and 6th scale degree of A major or the 2nd and 3rd scale degree of the D major. In other words the changing chord is also changing the context of the notes. Im just curious as to how others hear it

  2. #2
    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: ear training

    Let's keep the chord of the moment separate from the issue of tonality -- which key you're hearing the notes in relation to. If you're hearing that D chord as a IV chord in the key of A major, then E and F# will sound in relation to A major, not the key of D major (unless there's a modulation to that key). You may also hear E and F# as one and two scale degrees higher than the root of the IV chord, but I approach teaching this relationship as a later step -- it's not the most direct way to approach thinking about chord/melody relationships. For now I would focus on identifying all melodic notes in relation to the key. If you're confident with that, work on identifying roots of chord progressions -- and when those chord roots become easy to identify, your ear will compare those to the melodic notes, and draw deductions about how the melodic notes are functioning in context of the chord.

    This would be easy to demonstrate with a mandolin!
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  4. #3
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: ear training

    To answer your question, you should eventually learn to hear those notes in both contexts. For practical purposes when playing, it's probably more important to hear the notes as a reference to the chord you're currently playing, since (for example) that F# is what makes your IV chord a major chord. It's of more use to your brain as the 3rd of the D chord than the rarely-used 6th of your A chord when you're playing in the key of A. But your brain should still register its importance for the key, so that if you need to play a vi chord, you'll know to play F#m.

    It does become quite natural after a while, the more you pay attention to music theory, the circle of fifths, and the relationships of notes and intervals. It becomes one of those things you don't have to really think about as you're doing it, but you know how it all works comfortably enough to do it. Playing a lot of double-stops for each chord, in each key, and learning to transition between the double-stops, can go a long way.
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

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  6. #4

    Default Re: ear training

    Yes, indeed. I know Tobin also plays fiddle, as do I.
    With double stops being only 2/3rds of a chord, and knowing there can be three versions/inversions of any chord, it's hard to hit a wrong note.

    It may be subtle or maybe just a mental thing, but I feel like I actually grip the neck differently in the key of D, compared to the key of G, or E, or any other key. Not only can I run up and down the melodic scale with the correct intervals, but I also have the IV, V, and in most key cases the ii, iv chords quickly at hand. Also, 7ths and octaves if I don't use then, I know where they are.
    Fiddle neck or mandolin neck, the Four Finger Closed Formation (FFCF) [see jazzmando.com] is the impetus.

    Don't know how advanced the OP is. Sorry, if this has been covered.

  7. #5

    Default Re: ear training

    I would like to offer an observation that is similar to what Tobin said, above.

    Context really dictates the answer, but I am not sure I agree that reference to chord-of-the-moment trumps reference to tonal-center (key) as a practical issue, especially if playing a melody or a melodic extension (improvisation). To stick with Tobin's example, that F# certainly defines the "flavor" of the D chord, but it might contribute melodically in a number of ways, including the pull to resolution of a 6th to a 5th when played over the A chord. So you have context within the moment (current chord), context within the tonal structure of the song at large (key or mode) and, probably, context as chords change one to another during the songs progression.

    The most interesting uses of doublestops really take advantage of these contextual changes as they weave together (at least to my ear).

  8. #6

    Default Re: ear training

    I'd start with modern method of ear training. Instead of reading notation from a book and bashing away at a grand piano, modern ear training is more likely to involve tapping a touch screen or listening to specially-crafted MP3 tracks on headphones.
    Today you can go online with your computer or tablet and find a range of ear training websites which provide exercises that are easier, better and faster than traditional methods. Not to mention the interactive mobile apps like iPhone apps which are so popular because they truly make exercising your ears an engaging experience.

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: ear training

    Quote Originally Posted by 4Rashid View Post
    I'd start with modern method of ear training. Instead of reading notation from a book and bashing away at a grand piano, modern ear training is more likely to involve tapping a touch screen or listening to specially-crafted MP3 tracks on headphones.
    That may be good advice for some people.

    However, I don't recall my old-school ear training as "bashing away at a grand piano"...first we had electric pianos in our lab class in the 70's, but that's not the real point.

    Traditional ear training with real instruments, no headphones, apps, touchscreens, etc. worked for hundreds of years. It still works when applied correctly and one does the homework.

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  11. #8
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: ear training

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    It's of more use to your brain as the 3rd of the D chord than the rarely-used 6th of your A chord when you're playing in the key of A.
    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    To stick with Tobin's example, that F# certainly defines the "flavor" of the D chord, but it might contribute melodically in a number of ways, including the pull to resolution of a 6th to a 5th when played over the A chord.
    I assume you guys are not referring to many styles of jazz where a 6th chord is a normal occurrence....some Hawaiian music too!

    Also, I play non-pedal steel, my main tuning is A6:

    C# E F# A C# E low to high.

    Where I live musically, a 6th chord is hardly "rarely used"!

  12. #9

    Default Re: ear training

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Where I live musically, a 6th chord is hardly "rarely used"!
    Sure! I probably play, or have played, as much jazz as anything else I have played- and lots of music styles incorporate 6ths.

    I won't put words in Tobin's mouth, but what I was getting at is that NEITHER locking in the tonal center as "I", and defining all intervals as occurring from there, NOR setting the current chord root as "I" and defining intervals as occurring from there, is "correct" (whatever that means). Rather, there are good reasons to use both, or either, depending on context.

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  14. #10
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: ear training

    jshane gets my meaning. Notes and intervals are very much context-dependent, and you will need to rely on numerous contexts when playing. They all work together, and studying music theory will make it more clear.

    David, I think you misunderstood my meaning. I should have worded that better. I said that the 6th interval is rarely used in an A chord (because dissonance, of course), not that the vi chord was rarely used in the key of A. In fact, the vi chord is probably the most common after the IV and V chords.
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

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  16. #11
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: ear training

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post

    David, I think you misunderstood my meaning. I should have worded that better. I said that the 6th interval is rarely used in an A chord (because dissonance, of course), not that the vi chord was rarely used in the key of A. In fact, the vi chord is probably the most common after the IV and V chords.
    My mistake, I was assuming you meant the F# as part of an A6 chord too. Sorry.

  17. #12
    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: ear training

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Traditional ear training with real instruments, no headphones, apps, touchscreens, etc. worked for hundreds of years. It still works when applied correctly and one does the homework.
    Yes. I think if you look at the ear training curricula for all the major music schools, I think you'll find ear training classes in traditional classroom settings, sometimes augmented (har har) with software. Learning with software can be helpful, but it raises questions: Who designed it? what goals did they have in mind, and how aware were they of differing goals, needs, and learning styles of students? If you're just starting with ear training study, you have no way to know these details, or understand their implications. It's kind of like being on the right road to get you where you want to go, and knowing that road has gotten a lot of people there. We won't be able to demand better ear training software, as long as there's the assumption that anything online must be better.

    Years ago (as a professor of ear training at Berklee College) I was approached by a software developer of what is now a major ear training package, asking for feedback on his content and design. I pointed out a problem with one topic, likely to be counterintuitive and unnecessarily difficult for students. He responded that the software had been vetted by "dozens" of ear training teachers, so he wouldn't change it. (Translation: he's probably designed this himself, and doesn't really want feedback, as much as affirmation -- probably he's looking for publicity quotations). Years later I saw he'd ironed out the problem, but my point: designing effective ear training curricula doesn't get easier when it's for an online product; I'd expect the opposite to be true.

    Again, I have nothing against online ear training software (in fact it's one tool I have used in my classes), and if you're studying ear training on your own, software can be a great help. But there are also many classes available, taught the traditional way, through adult education centers, community music schools, and local colleges. There's no substitute for working with a good ET teacher who understands your interests and learning style, and can help you to customize your practice routine toward your own goals.
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  19. #13

    Default Re: ear training

    Quote Originally Posted by dbrown101 View Post
    Question for all you ear training experts out there. So im focusing on trying to hear everything in terms of scale degrees (which i believe is a form of solfege). So in essence if im in the key of A major and someone plays an E and an F# i would identify them as the 5th and 6th scale degrees. So my question is this... if the chord changes from A major to D major( I-IV) am i still trying to hear the notes as the 5th and 6th scale degree of A major or the 2nd and 3rd scale degree of the D major. In other words the changing chord is also changing the context of the notes. Im just curious as to how others hear it
    Another way of thinking of this stuff is in terms of sound linked to finger position. I am making the presumption that you are doing ear training because you want to be able to play what you hear. To hear something and then be able to play it is not an unreasonable goal. You do not need a high level of theory to do this. It will help me to explain it if you know the names of the open strings, one major scale and the three or four chords most used in that key. Note you need that level of theory so I can talk to you about it, not so that you can do it. If you had some one sitting next to you saying 'do this' or 'do that' you could get on fine with no theory.

    When it comes down to actually playing by ear there is no time for theory. The kind of thinking needed to process theory is too slow. To hear a series of notes and then play them, you have to associate sounds with finger positions directly. The only way to learn it is to do it. Hear, or imagine, a short series of notes and then play them.

    The first thing is to establish a key. Then, if you know the scale of that key you know where to start looking. Trial and error and try again.

    At first this can be painfully slow. Perhaps this is why some people look to theory to speed things up. It wont. One of the reasons it can seem so difficult is because it is so simple. Note 'simple', not 'easy'. Hear or imagine a short series of notes and play them, in the context of a key. Another way of putting it is hear, or imagine, a series of sounds and know where to put your fingers in order to make those sounds. Associate sounds with finger positions.

    In direct answer to your question I would hear the change of chord and know that the notes were open E string to second fret, if they are high notes, or D string second to fourth fret if they were low.

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  21. #14

    Default Re: ear training

    Quote Originally Posted by August Watters View Post
    Yes. I think if you look at the ear training curricula for all the major music schools, I think you'll find ear training classes in traditional classroom settings, sometimes augmented (har har) with software. Learning with software can be helpful, but it raises questions: Who designed it? what goals did they have in mind, and how aware were they of differing goals, needs, and learning styles of students? If you're just starting with ear training study, you have no way to know these details, or understand their implications...
    "Given X tones within a range of Y octaves, the student will identify the interval/chord."

    I am trying to figure out why this would be a difficult design problem. Learning style is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what your preferred style is; an aural task will best be learned aurally. The program would need to present the tasks in order of complexity (interval, triad, 7th chord), adding new tasks as previous ones are mastered. The more often a task is done correctly, the farther out its review is spaced. You might make different content choices for, say, jazz and classical musicians, but the design is not difficult.

    Actually, it is a simple design problem, but designers do often fail to space reviews by difficulty. It is very common to see music training programs and apps that do not address reviews effectively. They often add too many bells and whistles ("You can change the color of the fretboard!"), while neglecting optimal spacing algorithms.

    Finally, this kind of drilling is effective, but you will learn faster if you have a "reflection" activity after you drill: something that gets you to use your new skills creatively.
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