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Thread: Capo?

  1. #26
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Unless you want some effects involving open strings, such as crosspicking or playing one course open and sliding into that same pitch on the next lower course, it makes more sense to think of C# as Dd, five flats. Just pull your D shapes back one halfstep.
    Oh yeah, 5 flats (D♭, E♭, G♭, A♭, B♭). How simple. Gotta love the horn keys....

  2. #27

    Default Re: Capo?

    Just last week I was at my regular jam, we’re all having fun and laughing because we are rusty after a few months of not jamming much when one of the bluegrass police shows up and pronounces loudly how rusty we all are and O.M.G. there’s a capo...no wait a couple...horrors...

    So...we all pretty much igorned this and had fun playing while said person sat and did not join in most tunes because “I don’t know how to play in (insert any key other than D here)”...

    In over 40 years of playing music I am always amused by these types. Who cares..guitar and banjo players use capos all the time so why does it matter if an amateur playing and having fun using a capo on their mandolin violates some self appointed fun policeman righteous beliefs...SMH

    So I say go ahead and do whatever lets you enjoy playing your mandolin...learn all songs in all possible key combinations if you want or grab the capo and just go have fun..

    Sorry, rant over...I’ll go back to not posting in these threads again...
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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Capo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandobart View Post
    Oh yeah, 5 flats (D♭, E♭, G♭, A♭, B♭). How simple. Gotta love the horn keys....
    Those five notes correspond to the black keys on the piano. They are not distinguished from other notes on the mandolin, except that they don't appear on open strings. They are not more difficult to fret than any other note on the mandolin. They also appear in the key of B, which is a signature key in Bluegrass. (by contrast, Db is used quite frequently in jazz, whereas "H dur har fem krydser (five sharps) og er en ikke eksisterende toneart (key) i jazz", to quote Svend Asmussen).

    But I see here a conflict with the common rigid idea of "two frets, one finger". By that scheme, fingering in Db would differ a lot from fingering in D: to cover the Db major scale in first position you would use only three fingers, and in four instances one finger would cover two adjacent notes. That's just one reason I think diatonically (context allowing): next note, next finger. E.g., as I use my pinky on the 7th fret in D, I will use it on the 6th fret in Db.

    I think mandolin players would be wise to get away from the idea of "difficult", "off" or even "obnoxious" keys. In one of the first threads I read on this forum, about playing church music from notation, the TS was advised to have a caspo handy for "non mandoin friendly" keys like F(!!!) and Bb(!!), requiring exactly those transposition skills that a capo (to some) is supposed to obviate.

    As Paul Anastasio said, there are no difficult keys, only unfamiliar ones.

  5. #29
    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    ....

    As Paul Anastasio said, there are no difficult keys, only unfamiliar ones.
    I think that depends on the skill/experience of the player. I'm firmly at the beginner stage and rely on "muscle memory" to play so for me the only option to play in a different key would be a capo.

  6. #30
    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    I’ve been playing mando for 50+ years and very rarely use a capo. But I do have one and do choose to use it very occasionally, for instance if I think it helps with the tone or voicing I’m looking for in one of the less commonly used keys, or the aforementioned pesky singer doing an unfamiliar piece in Csharp scenario (the instrumentalist should always follow the singer, not the other way round). A capo is a tool, just that, and, while, learning to play in all keys is certainly an important skill, no-one needs permission from “purists” of any genre to use one if they find it helpful.

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  8. #31
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    when I whistle, I'm uncertain whether I'm whistling the black keys or the easier white keys?

    Capo makes difficult passages easier in some of the difficult (mandolin) keys. That's why I use it for Bach.

    f-d
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  9. #32
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    I saw this the other day:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  10. #33
    mandolin slinger Steve Ostrander's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    My main objection to using a capo is that it limits my hand movement. It just doesn't feel natural. As far as playing in any key, I agree that a good player should be able to, but mandolins just sound better in certain keys where the open strings are ringing. Blasphemy for fiddlers, right?
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  11. #34
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    This thread topic has been around for much longer than I have. And so it is a struggle to contribute something useful that hasn't been said before. In fact, I was tempted to say something, and found that I already had, many months ago.

    Most of all of you are not wrong. Working to not need a capo is a laudable goal, and will pay huge dividends. But I can see that for many, there are much bigger fish to fry, much bigger more urgent challenges, and issues limiting forward progress much more than dependence on a capo. Like diatonic fingering, like finding a jam and playing with others, like learning some tunes to play, learning how to learn a tune by ear, like learning performing, like learning how to use a microphone, like how to change strings without blood letting, like figuring out the advantages of various pick holds, like learning useful double stops and chord shapes, like learning what the heck the mandolin is supposed to do when there is a guitar for rhythm and a fiddle for melody and a banjo for what ever the heck a banjo is for...

    All I am saying is that when folks have conquered more and more of the big things, other things take their place as being the most limiting issues. And at that time a player can take up those new challenges and get on with things. And while playing in all keys is a great and important skill, there is a whole lot of fun to be had and a ton of things needed to be mastered, before one bumps into the limitations imposed by not playing in all keys. Its important, but its down the list.

    Yea my prejudice is that ya gotta learn it all. But I certainly don't think ya gotta learn it all this afternoon. Or that ya gotta learn it all to have a lot of really transcendent life changing fun, or that you gotta learn it all before you can play music with me.

    I am not worried. If its important to you, you will get to it. If it is presently not important to you, what the heck difference is my telling you what to do going to make?
    Last edited by JeffD; Jan-18-2018 at 3:25pm.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  13. #35
    Registered User Bunnyf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    What JeffD said. I'm a beginner, with sooo much to learn and at this moment I can't play in every key. I just went to a local BG jam; nice folks, lots of fun. They did play some familiar songs in difficult (for me) keys and I wished I HAD brought a capo. I could have joined in more. Of course my goal is to become comfortable in many keys but in the meantime, I want to enjoy jams and hone lots of other more rudimentary skills.

  14. #36
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    I have a capo in my case. I use it now and again. I get confused when I use it at times. It's a tool. If you choose to use it that's your choice. I sure as heck use a capo on my guitar even though I can play that in any key. I've never subscribed to the mandolin players don't use capos. There is a video here someplace of Ricky Skaggs using a capo to do a song. The late John McGann won Winfield (if I recall) one year with a capo on his mandolin, but then again, anyone that's been here more than a few years has probably read all that before.
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  16. #37
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    Kyser makes a capo for mandolin sized instruments. I bought one just because of its iconic shape, and to poke fun of the guitar player in my jam that has an array of brightly colored hardware clipped to her guitar headstock.

    So I put the Kyser, a Snark tuner, a Boss tuner, and a wooden clothes pin on my headstock.

    My go to capo is a Shubb, which I occasionally use. I used it more on my mandola. I struggle, however, because of my addiction to the fret markers, which do not move up when you capo. GRRRR.
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  17. #38
    Dave Sheets
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    Default Re: Capo?

    The sound of open strings matters, it adds specific colors. The singer-songwriter I work with uses some odd keys, cause they suit his vocal ranges, and capos his guitar to get the sound he wants. So it's capo time folks, I want the open string jangle, even if we are playing in A-flat. It's not about skill, it's about sound.
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  18. #39
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    Default Re: Capo?

    Quote Originally Posted by fatt-dad View Post
    the capo just makes sense on some of those complicated pieces by Bach that he wrote in such off keys!

    Then again, I'm having fun and know my limitations!

    f-d
    You awakened my curiosity with this post. To me, the main difficulty with some Bach pieces would not be the key, but the lack of rests.

    With some of his music for solo violin it does seem that the choice of key is dictated by certain special effects, e.g., the E major partita, if I understand the score correctly, alternates stopped notes on the a string with open e's.

    So I'm curious what Bach pieces you play, their original keys and your transposed keys, and how you go about transposing - do you write out the transposed version in notation, or do you transpose on the fly?

  19. #40
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    Also... as a quick fix, a capo on the first fret can sometimes make a cheap, broken or old mandolin sound great.

  20. #41
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    ...There is a video here someplace of Ricky Skaggs using a capo to do a song...
    With Welch and Rawlings:



    Interestingly, seem to be playing in C -- not a key that you'd think would require a capo. So it's just a case of wanting to play with a particular combination of open and fretted strings, I guess.

    Also, note Gillian's guitar, capoed at the fifth fret, playing G-position chords. You can't tell me that she can't play in "open" C. So it's not a question of lack of ability, just a choice to use that fingering pattern, and the sound of "open" strings (above the capo) at a higher pitch.
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  22. #42
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    Default Re: Capo?

    As a guitar player who picks some mando and likes to play bluegrass, I use a capo frequently on guitar and prefer to not use one on the mando. Of course at BG jams I often 'chicken out' to guitar when tunes swing into the keys of B & Bb. Rhythm is fine, but not so much 'there' yet on breaks.
    I certainly don't begrudge folks who prefer to capo their mando. One thing I've seen sometimes @ jams tho, if the song chooser is giving a quick run-through the chords beforehand say, is an expectation that, in addition to the actual chords &/or Nashville #s, the capo/mando transposing be provided as well. Seems like more rather than less group confusion usually ensues, especially in bigger jams....

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