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Thread: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion needed

  1. #1

    Default Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion needed

    Hi,

    I asked a local luthier to install the bridge on my mandolin. Now I'm not an expert but it looks to me that slots are way too deep on E and A string, and also base is messed up. Am I too picky here?
    If slots are too deep, is it possible to fill them and re-cut? Do you see other flaws?

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    Thank you!

  2. #2
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    It looks to me like the luthier may have put the bridge saddle on BACKWARDS, with the wider slots, intended for the G and D strings, on the treble side, and the narrower slots, intended for the E and A strings, on the bass side -- see how high these strings ride in the slots. If so, just try taking the strings off and reversing the saddle.

    Also, judging from the clear (dark) gap at the base where it meets the top, I'd say that he or she did not achieve an especially good fit to the top, either. No gap should be visible at all!

    I also suspect that this luthier does not understand the first thing about mandolins. If I were you, I would find some other luthier in the future!
    Last edited by sblock; Sep-12-2017 at 12:08pm.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    It looks to me like the luthier may have put the bridge saddle on BACKWARDS, with the wider slots, intended for the G and D strings, on the treble side, and the narrower slots, intended for the E and A strings, on the bass side -- see how high these strings ride in the slots. If so, just try taking the strings off and reversing the saddle.

    Also, judging from the clear (dark) gap at the base where it meets the top, I'd say that he or she did not achieve an especially good fit to the top, either. No gap should be visible at all!

    I also suspect that this luthier does not the first thing about mandolins. If I were you, I would find some other luthier in the future!
    Thanks you for reply sBlock,

    Well, the bridge wasn't slotted, so luthier did all the job. It's really hard to find a good luthier here in the Netherlands, this one was highly recommended (in this thread https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...he-Netherlands) and closest to me
    I agree that fit to the top looks terrible. Strange thing, instrument still sounds better than with old bridge.
    Do you think it's possible to fill gaps and re-cut it again?

  4. #4
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    I would also question why the bridge is bottomed out with no adjustment left in the screws. If that's what it took to get the action down where it's supposed to be, then the bridge is too tall. This may be why those slots are so deep: it was the only way to lower the strings any more.

    *edited to add: there's a gap between the top of the treble-side adjustment wheel and the bottom of the saddle. This means your saddle is resting on the bridge base on the treble side, and the adjustment wheel is not supporting the end like it should. That adjustment wheel is going to rattle and buzz when you play.
    Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    I would also question why the bridge is bottomed out with no adjustment left in the screws. If that's what it took to get the action down where it's supposed to be, then the bridge is too tall. This may be why those slots are so deep: it was the only way to lower the strings any more.
    True, it's a bit too tall, I think the proper way would be to remove some wood from the bottom of the saddle, but this luthier somehow thought differently. it also should fix this adjustment wheel problem.

  6. #6
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    The base is not making proper contact, the slots are gorges, the top of the saddle looks like a rollercoaster, this needs to with go back to the shop or you need to learn how to do it yourself. Sorry to be harsh but, the luthier did you no favors.
    Timothy F. Lewis
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  8. #7
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    You are not too picky. The base is messed up. It is not fitted well and not sanded smoothly. In addition, that nub of a screw on the bass side will cause all kind of problems when your hand rubs against it. Also, the saddle does look like it's on wrong. But, if not, it can be cut down a lot on the top and new notches made. You'd want the saddle up off the base a little bit. This will get rid of the nub of the screw, too.
    In short, all of the above answers are good.
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

  9. #8

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Just to add to my original post - I don't think that saddle is installed incorrectly, here's a pic from above

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  10. #9
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Pekar View Post
    Thanks you for reply sBlock,

    Well, the bridge wasn't slotted, so luthier did all the job. It's really hard to find a good luthier here in the Netherlands, this one was highly recommended (in this thread https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...he-Netherlands) and closest to me
    I agree that fit to the top looks terrible. Strange thing, instrument still sounds better than with old bridge.
    Do you think it's possible to fill gaps and re-cut it again?
    Yes, this can be fixed up. It is possible to (1) do further sanding to better fit the base to the top. This will also lower the bridge a little, which is in the right direction for you, anyway, and then (2) cut away the bad slots (leaving a slightly lower saddle) and then have them recut with proper shapes and depths. The slots each need to be cut the same width as the relevant string, and no deeper than roughly the radius of that string (and at most, its diameter). Finally, the bridge saddle can be raised into position using the thumbwheels.

    And yes, I agree that the saddle is not on backwards.

    But please, FIND SOMEONE ELSE who really knows what they're doing. This job looks like a complete a mess to me, and it reveals to me that the luthier is not familiar with mandolins. At a minimum, the fit to the top is poor and the wrong size file was used to cut the slots for the A and E strings. Plus, these slots are not only too wide; they are too deep. On a mandolin, you do not cut the bridge saddle slots deeper to lower the action: you lower the saddle, instead.

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  12. #10

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Ok, I took off the bridge and I see that posts on the bridge are actually go through the base. I don't remember how it was, is it standard CA or is it also modification by luthier?

    What worse, I see some marks on the finish when the bridge touched the top, also don't know if they were there or it's this luthier achievement.

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    I don't know how common it is to claim back the money spent on a luthier but I'm starting to like the idea
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  13. #11
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    The posts on the CA bridge are threaded, and can be adjusted from the back side (i.e., the underside) using a hex tool to turn them. This allows you to raise them a little, if necessary. However, they should NEVER be allowed to protrude beyond the bottom surface of base!! Allowing them to do this will let them gouge into, and damage, your top -- which is exactly what's happening. Sorry, but this is another indication that your luthier is clueless, at least in my opinion.

  14. #12

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    The posts on the CA bridge are threaded, and can be adjusted from the back side (i.e., the underside) using a hex tool to turn them. This allows you to raise them a little, if necessary. However, they should NEVER be allowed to protrude beyond the bottom surface of base!! Allowing them to do this will let them gouge into, and damage, your top -- which is exactly what's happening. Sorry, but this is another indication that your luthier is clueless, at least in my opinion.
    no need to sorry, thanks a lot for advice. I know that he cannot unfix what's done, but I'll call him tomorrow to asks if he'd like to return the money at least

  15. #13
    Registered User Kalasinar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    I very much hope you get your money back, especially considering the damage done to the finish by the protruding saddle posts. If there is no other luthier local to you (who knows his/her way around a mandolin) then you could consider fitting the base yourself and be confident you will do a better job. There's a lot of info and knowledgeable folk here to advise you. I am not so sure about the saddle slots, but surely a replacement saddle from CA could be purchased (the slots can be cut for you). I fit a CA bridge to my Eastman last year using the CA bridge fitting tool (which I highly recommend if you DIY). Steve Smith was a great support and answered my many questions during the process. He sent me instructions via email which I think I still have - I can forward them to you if you need them.

    Good luck, I hope you come out of this with your money back and the bridge remedied some way.
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  16. #14
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    I agree the luthier did poor job bu tI'm not so sure the CA bridge posts caused the dmage. I believe they don't cut thread in the holes all through the base so the posts cannot be easily threaded right through the base unless the luthier removed quite a bit of wood. Try it with the supplied hex (1/16") and you'll see. Also measure distance between the marks if they fit the distance between the CA bridge posts.
    Regarding the original work I'd say the saddle is toast, but luckily the base can be used the edge seems to be quite roughly rasped but you'll need to remove some more wood adn if any chips remain they can be filled with CA glue and dust from the fitting process. In cases like this, when neck angle allows very low bridge I always remove as much as possible from base, not from the saddle. of full contact bridge you can go safely down to 1/8" thickness in the center (unless some funky top arch says otherwise), If that is not enough I'd remove some wood from bottom of the SADDLE to prevent contact with base, then I'd lower the "tabs" of the base at the posts to almost nothing and only it that all doesn't help I'd remove wood from top of the saddle, never at the wheels. You can see that the saddle is quite weakened where the e string compensation meets the cutoff on the bottom of the saddle. That is the weak point where most saddles crack.
    Also the notches are poorly executed. I tend to put strings in tiny triangular file notches for initial stringing and measure action and lower them as necesary, also check for intonation and then remove the bridge from mandolin and just with few strokes finish the slots and remove wood from top of saddle till all slots are just half diameter string deep. Usually just e and d srings need deepening after initial cut if the arch of saddle is correct.
    Last edited by HoGo; Sep-12-2017 at 4:55pm. Reason: error: typed base instead of SADDLE
    Adrian

  17. #15

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Hi Roman,

    Man, I hate seeing stuff like this! We work hard to make these bridges "just right" and then sometimes stuff like this happens.

    Some of this has been covered, but here's my take on the situation...

    First, the saddle is properly situated, concerning how the string compensation notches are situated, so no need to flip it.
    The slots are ridiculous. I wonder if the installer has a set of nut files? Depending upon your string gauge, you want that E string slot to be around .010"-.012" or so wide, and not NEARLY that deep! To fix it, I think I would sand away at the top edge of the saddle, until the notches are gone, and then re-slot the saddle. This would also solve the problem of the bridge being a little bit tall for your mandolin.

    The next thing I would do is re-fit the bridge base. Currently, it is not even close. I don't know how you feel about learning/doing this kind of work yourself, but if you were willing to take on the task, we now offer a tool that makes the job MUCH easier...

    http://cumberlandacoustic.com/produc...tting-fixture/

    About the posts digging into your mandolin top, that is just a sad thing to see. I can offer two suggestions here: You could file or grind down the ones you have, or I could send you some posts that are 1/2" long, instead of the ones you have, which are likely 5/8" long. This will also solve the problem of the posts sticking out above the top edge of the saddle. This small modification alone will make playing your mandolin more enjoyable.

    So, by the time you take a small amount off of the top of the saddle and re-fit the base, then that bridge should be the correct height for your mandolin. One thing to consider, as you remove material from the top of the saddle, it makes the "ridge" along the top edge of the saddle thicker (due to the angled compensation cuts). If they get too thick, you can take a small file and remove a bit of material from the back (tailpiece) edge of the saddle. This way you won't change the compensation scheme that we cut into the saddle.

    If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.

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  19. #16

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    I agree the luthier did poor job bu tI'm not so sure the CA bridge posts caused the dmage. I believe they don't cut thread in the holes all through the base so the posts cannot be easily threaded right through the base unless the luthier removed quite a bit of wood. Try it with the supplied hex (1/16") and you'll see. Also measure distance between the marks if they fit the distance between the CA bridge posts..
    I recall that there wasn't any damage like this and I checked and the distance matches. I'm not blaming CA though, it was job of a luthier to check this before installation

  20. #17

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Hah! It looks like a couple of other great suggestions came in while I was typing my reply above. All good stuff.

    Also, I took another look at your picture. I agree with Adrian, that saddle is most likely "toast". I'd be glad to send you another one, just to help fix this mess. I can slot it for you too. I'll even sharpen my chain saw before doing so! (Just kidding...)

    If you want to go this way, get in touch with me. that looks to be a pretty low bridge, and I'll need a couple of specific dimensions from you before making a replacement saddle.

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  22. #18

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Oh my, mandolincafe doesn't disappoint!

    Hi Steve, it was pleasure to have business with you and it still is!

    I thought about doing the job by myself, cause I'm really tired of trying to find a good luthier here (may be I'm just not lucky enough).
    So I'd gladly accept all three your suggestions (so far). I think I can make a better job then this 'luthier'. I'll send you an email

  23. #19
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    How wonderful that Steve himself ("Mr. Cumberland Acoustic") has stepped in, and is willing to go the extra mile to help you get a properly-fitted bridge for your mandolin. Kudos to CA!!!

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    Registered User CWRoyds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Yeah, Cumberland bridges are the business.
    Love them.
    My mandolin improved by about 15% after adding a new ebony Cumberland full contact bridge.
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  26. #21

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by CWRoyds View Post
    Yeah, Cumberland bridges are the business.
    Love them.
    My mandolin improved by about 15% after adding a new ebony Cumberland full contact bridge.
    Actually my instrument sounded better with this bridge installed (all other things being equal), even though there was no full contact. I wonder how good it will sound when the bridge will be installed properly.
    Last edited by Roman Pekar; Sep-12-2017 at 3:10pm.

  27. #22

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    And by the way, if you know really trusted luthier in Netherlands (well ok, I can even travel to Belgium/France/Germany) - please let me know. I need a new nut as well and this I probably can't do myself

  28. #23
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Pekar View Post
    Oh my, mandolincafe doesn't disappoint!
    Hi Steve, it was pleasure to have business with you and it still is!
    I thought about doing the job by myself, cause I'm really tired of trying to find a good luthier here (may be I'm just not lucky enough).
    So I'd gladly accept all three your suggestions (so far). I think I can make a better job then this 'luthier'. I'll send you an email
    I think a 4 year old could do a better job. I wouldn't ask if the ( so called ) luthier would refund your money,I'd demand refund plus damage to my mandolin. Steve has gone beyond the call of duty which shows a good merchant and someone that it is a delight to do buisness with.

  29. #24

    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I think a 4 year old could do a better job. I wouldn't ask if the ( so called ) luthier would refund your money,I'd demand refund plus damage to my mandolin.
    Found couple of more new scratches around the bridge, probably made when slotting the bridge. How much would you demand as a damage like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Steve has gone beyond the call of duty which shows a good merchant and someone that it is a delight to do buisness with.
    Steve's truly great, but I have mixed feelings though that he's going to pay for my stupidity and above mentioned "luthier" mistakes. I'll see if I can get the price of the bridge back..

  30. #25
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have new CA bridge installed by luthier - expert opinion need

    Hi Roman - First off,looking at your photo.,is the bridge a 'full contact' bridge ie. no gap under the centre,or has the luthier just sanded it all away ???. Looking at the base of it & what looks like a chipped bottom edge,that's a rough job. The A & E slots are ridiculous,although the G & D slots look to be how they should be.

    I fitted a CA bridge to my first Lebeda mandolin. The mandolin had a radiussed fingerboard but the bridge that i was sent (from a UK store) was straight,so i had to fit the base & then radius the top of the saddle (removing the existing slots) & then cut new string slots. All that meant was that i had to raise the saddle by an .1" of an inch or so to compensate for it.
    It took me about 4 hours of careful sanding & checking & the re-shaping/cutting the saddle. I took my time,thought it through & though i'd never fitted a mandolin bridge before,i did a very good job.

    The CA bridges that i'm familiar with have a base like the one in the pic. I've not seen a 'full contact' CA bridge. The saddle could be sanded to remove the string slots & then re-cut properly. You'd simply need to raise the saddle upwards to compensate. The base mmmm !. I think that maybe a new base would be in order to get it properly right. I don't like the look of that chipped edge at all,
    Ivan
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