"Floating" right hand

[dorenac]

Surely there are lots of threads on this topic, although I haven't found much so far. I'm trying to wean myself from touching the mandolin top while playing and I've been somewhat successful. When playing faster tempo I find that I start unconsciously dragging my pinky and ring finger which has created a dull spot on the top. And as I watch so many good players, especially younger ones these days, it seems as though none touch the top. Also great guitar players, Pat Metheny for one, doesn't anchor or touch the top. How does one break the habit of dragging/anchoring?

[fatt-dad]

working on the same thing. . .

f-d

[AlanN]

I remember when I first started picking 40 years ago, I saw a cat on the street in Tucson, AZ playing a black Gibson snakehead and burning it up. I closely looked at his right hand and he was floating. I was dumbfounded that someone could have any pick control doing it that way. Well, here it is and that's mostly how I pick, maybe a little light brushing of the bridge top here and there, a bit of finger touch on the top at times. Wakefield says let your hand shake your wrist.

For me, it came/comes with practice/playing time. And suspect it's the same for most.

[dorenac]

Watch Chris Thile, especially when he plays Bach, and his right hand reminds me of the old timey IBM Selectronic typewriter ball, it is so fast and accurate. The other thing I struggle with is avoiding muting the strings at the bridge when I "float". Yeah I agree a lot of practice is necessary and good pick gripping technique, too.

[CWRoyds]

I am a guitarist historically, and I have always pinky planted.
When I started playing mandolin I made a conscious effort to play it correctly, with a floating hand.
It wasn't so hard, once I decided to work on it.
Now when I go back to guitar I find that I am playing with a floating hand there too.
I think the weight of the hand behind the pick gives better tone, and the freedom you get from not being tied to one point is really nice.

I do sometimes open out the hand a bit when playing chop chords or playing tremolo.
Actually, when I play tremolo up over the fretboard, I tend to touch my pinky to the inside of the cutout.

One thing that I did to help learn to close up the hand and float was to hold a second pick under the pinky and ring fingers on the right hand. Having to hold the pick made me keep my hand shut. This worked for me.

[dorenac]

Something else I've noticed, or I think I observe correctly, is some players used their middle finger to "support" or "back-up" their pointer finger. Many of the faster players pick cleaner and maybe ultimately can play faster if they can float, too. I think I'm having a picking technique mid-life crisis.

[fatt-dad]

In addition to your thumb, how many fingers touch your pick?

I've always been thumb + 1. Now I'm messing with thumb + 2. Interesting ability to better control the angle, beyond just using your anchor/wrist rest. Just messing around.

f-d

[dorenac]

In addition to your thumb, how many fingers touch your pick?

I've always been thumb + 1. Now I'm messing with thumb + 2. Interesting ability to better control the angle, beyond just using your anchor/wrist rest. Just messing around.

f-d

Just thumb and pointer finger. I experiment off and on with the middle finger up against the pointer but not holding or touching the pick. I think it's counterproductive to make a fist with the remaining 3 fingers. Too much hand tension. So I find those fingers opening up and eventually dragging over the top very lightly. And then I mentally remind myself to close the hand loosely again.

[MontanaMatt]

I can't clearly recall the article, but upon starting the mando, I read a summary of right hand technique review of top players, showing that there was no professional consensus on "the right" right hand technique. I saw the utility of not having to change hand positions for solo vs chop and chose to force an efficient closed hand as my norm and pounded it into my hand with forced repetitive effort. As none of picking felt natural or intuitive, it was just a choice of what to adopt as my new norm.
If you decide to break a habit, go for it and don't look back.

[BradKlein]

Here is an easy experiment. Wrap a rubber band around your four fingers and then hold the pick in a standard position between thumb and forefinger. You can really hear the difference in tone by providing support to the index finger, especially on the upstroke.

I'm not telling you how to hold your pick. I'm just saying there is a very big difference between the power that comes naturally on the down stroke, and the upstroke. And part of it has to do with a natural tendency of the thumb to support the pick more firmly on the down stroke. Plus gravity helps.

Try it and let me know what you hear. I think that balancing the upstroke and downstroke, and controlling variation is an important part of flatpicking. (The idea is not original to me, of course. I learned it from the pros and my teachers)

[Bertram Henze]

In addition to your thumb, how many fingers touch your pick?

Actually touching? Index only. BUT supporting? middle against index, ring against middle. Clamps the pick well.

Here is an easy experiment. Wrap a rubber band around your four fingers and then hold the pick in a standard position between thumb and forefinger. You can really hear the difference in tone by providing support to the index finger, especially on the upstroke.

This is mainly what I arrived at, even without the help of rubber gadgets. It's a big leverage for volume, too. The only deviation from that picture is my pinky - still brushing lightly over the top.
The interesting thing about the pinky is that is seems to be a purely mental thing: when playing my electric TG, a minimalistic traveller instrument mit no top to brush over, the pinky is still out there, brushing through air.

[ralph johansson]

Surely there are lots of threads on this topic, although I haven't found much so far. I'm trying to wean myself from touching the mandolin top while playing and I've been somewhat successful. When playing faster tempo I find that I start unconsciously dragging my pinky and ring finger which has created a dull spot on the top. And as I watch so many good players, especially younger ones these days, it seems as though none touch the top. Also great guitar players, Pat Metheny for one, doesn't anchor or touch the top. How does one break the habit of dragging/anchoring?

http://mandozine.com/techniques/righ...righthand.html

[ralph johansson]

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmagoBQunZI

[Ivan Kelsall]

As long as you don't touch the strings on the fingerboard side of the bridge,thus 'muting' them to a degree,does it really matter as long as you have good control over the pick ?. Adam Steffey for one is a 'planter'. He plants his pinky on the top or pickguard to stabilise his picking & to prevent himself from moving around too much. There's absolutely nothing wrong with resting either the heel of your hand or fingers on the mandolin as long as it doesn't affect your tone/volume control. What is the advantage of not doing so ?.

The string pressure on the bridge is so great that a tiny bit more from your hand will do nothing to change your tone or volume - as long as you're only resting your hand not pressing on it !. I must admit that i've tried to 'float' my right hand when picking & i found it hard not to wander away from my optimum picking position on the strings. I also observed that i didn't get any 'better' tone than when i rested my hand on the bridge.

Anyway - that's my own experience. If it's something that a person deems worthy of trying out,so be it,but if it has no overall benefit..... ?,
Ivan

[BradKlein]

I think that those who've thought most about this would say that the benefits of not planting fingers or the heel of the palm are 'greater mobility', and 'more relaxed hand position'. There are lots of great professional and amateur exceptions, but those are why the floating hand is the 'conventional' best practice in many mandolin styles. Not that doing otherwise mutes the instrument.

[dorenac]

I think that those who've thought most about this would say that the benefits of not planting fingers or the heel of the palm are 'greater mobility', and 'more relaxed hand position'. There are lots of great professional and amateur exceptions, but those are why the floating hand is the 'conventional' best practice in many mandolin styles. Not that doing otherwise mutes the instrument.

Brad, I think you hit on the best wording for this: "conventional best practice". As the Mandozine poll illustrated there are several common ways, most of which involve some degree of closed hand, some more than others. And the rubber band trick might work. There's a combination of physical restraint and a gentle reminder. Again I hope to see two real advantages to "floating". One being more mobility which I think leads to more speed. And the second might be better tone. I will post later about rubber bands.

[JonZ]

Unlearning a habit is challenging. You might want to spend some time each day working on right hand technique in isolation.

[Louise NM]

One other trick to help break a habit: the second you notice yourself planting, stop, reset, and start again. If anyone in your household would be willing to occasionally watch you play and squirt you with ice water (or just bring it to your attention) as soon as that finger starts heading for the instrument top, that's even better feedback.

[dorenac]

So yesterday I tried the rubber band around the fingers method and there was an improvement in tone. Not sure I can get used to fiddling with the rubber bands wrapped around my fingers. But the sound definitely improved.

[Bertram Henze]

One other trick to help break a habit: the second you notice yourself planting, stop, reset, and start again. If anyone in your household would be willing to occasionally watch you play and squirt you with ice water (or just bring it to your attention) as soon as that finger starts heading for the instrument top, that's even better feedback.

And there I thought torture was banned...

[michaelcj]

Chris Thiele with the closed hand..... Tim O'Brien with the open.
Think it can go either way...... I'd be delighted with 20% of either's capability.

[Mark Wilson]

Chris Thiele with the closed hand..... Tim O'Brien with the open.

Not sure if related to closed/open but of the really good pickers whose rhythm playing I dig, they seem to have a more open loose fist.

Not brushing or planting improves my upstroke when picking melody so I can see that ending up as a winning technique. For now I brush lightly on pickgard for accuracy when picking melody

Probably just me, but a closed fist just kills my feel for rhythm. Still in search mode tho. Increasing speed seems to cut the weak techniques out of the herd

[Ryk Loske]

A variation CWRoyds post (#5)

To break (brake?) myself of the habit of touching the tops of any of the plectrum instruments i cut a piece of dowel about the thickness of a pencil and long enough to rest in the three fingers of my right hand not holding the pick. I tried the pick trick mentioned in post 5 some time ago and it didn't work for me but the dowel did and still does do the trick.

It is definitely worth the effort to get to comfortably float.

Ryk

[BradKlein]

So yesterday I tried the rubber band around the fingers method and there was an improvement in tone. Not sure I can get used to fiddling with the rubber bands wrapped around my fingers. But the sound definitely improved.

Thanks for giving it a try! I just want to be absolutely clear: I am NOT suggesting anyone strive to perform regularly either with a rubber band around the fingers OR with a TIGHTLY clenched fist. And as far as I know, none of the good teachers advocate that either. It's just an exercise to see how much the support of the middle, ring, and pinky can make to the pick, especially on the upstroke. Those fingers are happy to lend a hand if and when you need them. (see what I did there? :-)

[smokinop]

One thing that I did to help learn to close up the hand and float was to hold a second pick under the pinky and ring fingers on the right hand. Having to hold the pick made me keep my hand shut. This worked for me.

Thanks for this suggestion. I've been struggling for the longest with my right hand fingers dragging on the top which also caused my hand to lean too much on the bridge. I've been applying this technique for the past few days & am feeling more comfortable with this new grip!