Advice Wanted on Playing Style

[gspiess]

I've been playing a little over a year now and find that because I practiced/learned songs on my own, I've focused on learning chords and strumming styles as opposed to picking. My issue is that now that I find myself playing and performing with other musicians, I tend to play the mandolin as if it were a second guitar where I'm playing the chord pattern or "harmony double-stops" in a higher register.

That has worked out OK, but I'd like to advance to where I'm playing licks to complement the other players and vocalists, rather than just playing the melody. Most of the music is either old-time or contemporary with a folk vibe.

I know I haven't described this well, but I'm hoping that the more experienced players know what I'm trying to say. Are there any resources that I could find that would get me started in the right direction?

[UsuallyPickin]

Well .... Firstly there is never anything wrong with playing the melody.... secondly IMO it's time for you to develop a relationship with closed position full and partial; ie. pentatonic and blues major and minor, scales and arpeggios. They are the building blocks of melody and any lick you want to introduce into your playing. Once you get the scale patterns under your fingers you can move them around from key to key. Look into FFCP scales .... four finger closed position .... and you will be on your way. R/

[Mandoplumb]

My Dad played mainly banjo all the time I was growing up and learning mandolin. A lot of what I do on a mandolin is adapted from bluegrass banjo. You don't have to play what everyone else is playing. Bluegrass mandolin ( my main music) has changed from Monroe's style to the extent that those new to mandolin, that hasn't heard Bill wouldn't know it was first. A quote attributed to Monroe giving advice to new pickers " learn everything anybody else is doing, then do none of it." learn your fills and riffs, obese that you like any are yours, don't worry where the inspiration came from.

[George R. Lane]

Start Here; http://jazzmando.com/ffcp_studies.shtml

[JeffD]

Scales and FFcP over and over and over again. The benefits are immediate and cumulative. You can never get enough, and its never a waste of time.

[Cornfield]

Start Here; http://jazzmando.com/ffcp_studies.shtml

Triple Dipple Thank you!

[Loubrava]

Not sure on the style question but I went down the same road when I started playing & being self taught I developed bad right hand technique & didn't realize it until I started taking some lessons. The teacher told me "I can spot a guitar player playing the mandolin a mile away" I'm still working on my right hand but my playing has improved a lot since I've been working on it. Another quote "practice makes permanent" I think is spot on. Your technique may be perfect but there are (at least for me) some pitfalls of being self taught.
Lou

[GTison]

Decide on a pro player you admire and copy that style. You may never sound like them. But you will introduce other things that are in your mind. This may end up being your style.

Long ago, when beginning I chose to play like Bill Monroe. But when our band plays somewhere I think I choose notes more like Wayne Benson or someone more contemporary.

You CAN choose your style.

[Br1ck]

I'd start by playing the chords you already play with a single note picking style, arpeggio style,then start figuring out the melody notes that lie between the arpeggio. You can then combine these notes as an amalgamation of double stops and single note runs.

When adding a mandolin to my recordings, I'm often surprised how much a simple picking pattern adds to a mix.

If you don't have one, get a looper, provided you have at least a mic, record the chord changes on a guitar, and noodle away until you get something that sounds good. Adding and subtracting notes as you go along, you will get something workable. Steal as many licks from recordings as you can.

[Caleb]

When adding a mandolin to my recordings, I'm often surprised how much a simple picking pattern adds to a mix.

The great thing about mandolin is that a little goes a long way, and pretty much anything one adds to the music sounds cool, especially in a world where most people's ear is trained to hear guitars.

[gspiess]

This is all great advice. Much appreciated!

[JeffD]

I started exactly the other way. My previous instrument was woodwind, I never had played guitar, so I started mandolin as a melody player, single note melody. Chords seemed to like someone else's job.

It took a long time to learn how to make and use chords. The hardest part was learning to hear when the chord changed and what it changed to.

[gspiess]

I started exactly the other way. My previous instrument was woodwind, I never had played guitar, so I started mandolin as a melody player, single note melody. Chords seemed to like someone else's job.

It took a long time to learn how to make and use chords. The hardest part was learning to hear when the chord changed and what it changed to.

That is where for me, at least, the Nashville Number System helped. Moving to the "next chord" on the mandolin becomes pretty easy when you realize the positional relationship of all the chords in the same key.

Now I just want to learn single note riffs to connect the chords.

[Charlie Bernstein]

I knew a guy with a banjo how-to book. On page 7 it said: "QUESTION: How do I get that fast, clean sound? Answer on page 48."

On page 48, it said, "Practice!"

(That's also how you get to Carnegie Hall.)

And yeah, things like the Nashville and CAGED systems can be a big help.

[Stacey Morris]

I started exactly the other way. My previous instrument was woodwind, I never had played guitar, so I started mandolin as a melody player, single note melody. Chords seemed to like someone else's job.

It took a long time to learn how to make and use chords. The hardest part was learning to hear when the chord changed and what it changed to.

Hearing the chord changes still stumps me. I watched a video about the Nashville Number System, so I know (sometimes) what chord I should change to, but I just don't know when to change. Still working on that. For now, I have to have the chords noted on the sheet music.

[Mandoplumb]

Dumb question. I thought nashville no system was A is 1 B is2 etc. How does that tell you which chord to change to?

[gspiess]

For me, and using the NNS, I still have to have an idea of how the song sounds and is mapped (verse, chorus, bridge, etc...). But once I know the key (1), I can tell that if the next chord has some tension, its (4), if not, its (5), and if its a minor, most likely its (3). The cool thing about the mandolin is that using "Jethro Burns" 3 string chords, its all linear, and I can practice just running through the chords of that particular key, barely changing the chord shapes.
I've played with both bass players and keyboardists who can follow a guitarist based on their hand position...I'm not there but I do pay attention to body language. A good "leader" will throw out subtle cues that a change is coming.

[gspiess]

Dumb question. I thought nashville no system was A is 1 B is2 etc. How does that tell you which chord to change to?

Not quite. The most basic of songs, played in any key, is made up of usually a combination of three chords that are sequenced at 1, 4, and 5. So if you're playing in the key of A, A is the root, or (1), D which is four positions over is (4), and E is (5). So your three main chords are always (1), (4), and (5). If you change the key, say to G, then G becomes the root (1), C is four positions over, so it becomes (4), and D is (5). So if someone is calling out chords using the NNS, you need to know the root (1), and everything follows. Here is a good link, to a Key Transposition Table : https://articles-ecl.jamplay.com/lie...hville/ex6.gif

[Mandoplumb]

I've been playing so long that i can't remember not knowing which common chords go in what key. I can't think numbers.I would have to stop and count to the four and by that time the song would be at five or back to one. Gspiess, love your tag, I've never been a drummer but I could give you a run for your money on hitting wrong note on right beat.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . That has worked out OK, but I'd like to advance to where I'm playing licks to complement the other players and vocalists, rather than just playing the melody. Most of the music is either old-time or contemporary with a folk vibe.

I know I haven't described this well . . . .

On second read, I think what you want help with is fill - improvisation between the words of songs.

There's not much that's better that playing along with recordings of music you like - especially music that does not have mando.

And try Googling go-to mandolin licks. You'll find some helpful tricks and ideas, including some Mando Cafe posts.

Also Google caged system if you don't already use it. It's an essential lead guitar tool, and it's just as useful for other fretted instruments.

[Sherry Cadenhead]

Gspiess, what do you mean by "tension?" I have the same "dumb" question as Mandoplumb. I've started jamming at the senior center. I can hear when the chord should change, but don't have a clue as to the correct chord (except that it's probably a I, IV or V). I guess at it and sometimes feel I've guessed correctly.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Gspiess, what do you mean by "tension?" I have the same "dumb" question as Mandoplumb. I've started jamming at the senior center. I can hear when the chord should change, but don't have a clue as to the correct chord (except that it's probably a I, IV or V). I guess at it and sometimes feel I've guessed correctly.

Yep. Most songs stick to one scale. If they don't, they almost always just involve two. For the rest, snap your fingers or beat-box.

[stevedenver]

Op

I think, like so many of us, in so many pursuits, you found something viable, in terms of your style and musical fit. Its easy for you, and you revert to what you know. Its a "habit". We all do it. We all have a certain bag of musical tricks. It needs to be mindfully enlarged. That and beyond " tricks".

Ffcp will help, but, its a project in itself. Daily mindful practice. Use it at first, to train your muscle memory, and then find simple tunes. It will become intuitive.

I too think you need to conciously imitate certain players licks and fills.

While it may not sound like your cup of tea, i agree with copying, almost note for note, certain players.

This is work. It takes discipline, but, in my experience, it will get you out of your rut/head, and force you to engage and understand another players approach. This in turn will influence your technique.

The simple way, imho, is to sit with one tune, and try to play along and cop the licks. Learn it so that, sans recording, it sounds like what you were hearing. Engrain that tune. Then, choose a second, and repeat. Likely these may be frustrating and lots of time and effort. It will get better.
Best of luck.

[gspiess]

My apologies for not getting back sooner - I was traveling for work. Let me begin by thanking those who have responded to my original question about playing style. I'm taking all of your responses seriously and appreciate your wisdom. In fact, the idea of copying a pro's style is intriguing because it is through listening to pro's that I realize "I need to learn that to get to the next level"; and thus my query. It's also what I did as a drummer - I focused on one pro that I really admired and copied everything he did. (Levon Helm)
I'm also not going to claim any expertise on music theory. I used to play drums for touring artists and picked up a lot talking with other musicians; but mostly I learned from my wife, who is a church worship director and keyboardist. I like the Nashville Numbering System as theory because it makes sense for me and seems to fit how the mandolin is tuned in 5ths. From a practical perspective, it also works because I've found that artists will often change keys at the last minute during a practice. A vocalist might be having voice issues so they lower a key, and guitarist don't like F chords... so thinking in numbers helps me sort out those changes.
Sherryc: I use the word "tension" because that is what I sense with the 4. For instance, if I play an open G(1), and then follow it with an open C(4), it feels like its "moving away", but then the open D(5) is bringing it back closer to home. It occurs to me that might be why 1-5-1 is used so often for turnarounds. Maybe this all comes from playing closely with bass players and what's called "locking in" where you just sense intuitively where the song is headed to the next chord.
Anyway, I don't want to write a book - just thanks for all of the advice - I can't begin to describe the joy I get from playing this little 8 stringed therapist and then going out and gigging with other musicians.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From mandoplumb - "..A lot of what I do on a mandolin is adapted from bluegrass banjo..". The same here,after 54 years pickin' banjo,how could it not be ?. I don't deliberately play banjo licks on mandolin,but how i 'hear the tune' definitely still has a lot of banjo input,so bits & pieces do creep in,especially in how i end a break.

One of the things i've done since i started playing mandolidn is exactly how i did it on banjo - i played along with recordings,both to learn the tunes & to learn ''what to play & where to play it'' = i copied what the players did,like 99% of other pickers i'd guess.

If you have other musicians to play with,then you're in the perfect position to develop your own style If it's a regular bunch of guy that you're playing with,try things out to see (hear) what fits & what doesn't. That's how i did it when i got a band together back in the late 1960's. I could play 'the tunes' well enough,i just need to understand ''what to play & when''. I got it sorted, as did the other 3 guys in the band - time & practice / trial & error,
Ivan