Tuning the pairs: 100% unison, or ... ?

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So-called "sweetened" tuning schemes are designed to allow instruments designed for 12 tone equal temperament tuning (12TET) to sound more like systems such as mean-tone tuning... in a few closely related keys.

For centuries many keyboard instruments such as pipe organs were tuned to various tunings that were NOT 12TET.

Mostly what bothers string players - I've seen this issue on regular guitar and steel guitar forums - is the 3rds, which is why I mentioned mean-tone tuning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament

"by choosing an appropriate size for the tempered fifths, may produce a perfect major third or a perfect minor third, but not both at the same time."

It's those 3rds that seem to need "sweetening", as long as you play basic chords and do not get too far away on the circle of 5ths.

Right, the "problem" with 12TET is that the major third interval is something like 14 cents sharp, and the minor third is something like 16 cents flat. Some guitar players like to tune their B string just a hair flat, because it makes the open and barre "Cowboy Chords" with the third interval on the B string sound a little sweeter when playing a major chord. But then you wreck the minor chords, or any other chord shapes where the third isn't on the B string.

It's better to bite the bullet, and learn to live with the 12TET system of our frets. Unless you only play Cowboy Chords in major key tunes, I guess.

[jesserules]

Thanks to all for interesting insights. Personally I will stick to tuning both by tuner then actually playing them & adjusting one till they sound right together.

I've never been bothered by the discrepancies inherent in getting fretted instruments in tune, but it is intriguing to think about ways to make them sound as good as possible ... (considering!).

[Jacob]

[Mandoplumb]

Seems to me that this sweetness is in the ears of the beholder. My Dad was one that always tuned the B string a hair flat, that was what I heard before I could hold a guitar, it was the way it was tuned aa I was learning to play and it's the way I have to tune a guitar now. If I'm listening to someone that doesn't do that all I can think is " tune the #### guitar.

[DavidKOS]

Seems to me that this sweetness is in the ears of the beholder. My Dad was one that always tuned the B string a hair flat, that was what I heard before I could hold a guitar, it was the way it was tuned aa I was learning to play and it's the way I have to tune a guitar now. .

Thanks.

and I bet y'all played in G an awful lot!

[sblock]

Folks have been complaining about 12TET (12-tone, equal temperament) for centuries, it seems. Get over it, people, I say! If you intend to play Western-style music in more than just one key with others, or if you want to play a fretted instrument, or a keyboard instrument, for that matter, then you'd best stop all the whining and just get used to the minor idiosyncracies of 12TET. It's the only practical, versatile solution. The reasons why have been explained more times than I can count. And you can ask anyone familiar with music theory. So set your basic tuner to A440, tune up your mandolin courses in unison, and get on with making some music...

Tough love.

[MontanaMatt]

I just got done with our first gig with all band members using the stroboclip hd with individual sweeteners, and it could be observational bias, but things fit better, and all parts seemed to blend and fit in the mix nice. We are a four piece; mando, guitar, banjo, bass. The intuitive reading of the strobe made everyone get there asap. This is probably better suited to be in a Peterson thread, but having the whole band tune with the same rigs and the same precision was very revealing.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Back in 1966 - 70 when i had my band together (banjo / mandolin / guitar & bass fiddle),i used & still use a 'G' tuning fork to tune my banjo. When we got together for either a practice or a gig,i'd check my banjo with the tuning fork & the others would tune up to me.
We never sounded out of tune -ever.

Traditionally,the Oboe was used to produce a clean note for a whole orchestra to tune up to,so tuning 3 other instruments to my banjo was pretty easy & effective,
Ivan

[DavidKOS]

Folks have been complaining about 12TET (12-tone, equal temperament) for centuries, it seems. Get over it, people, I say! If you intend to play Western-style music in more than just one key with others, or if you want to play a fretted instrument, or a keyboard instrument, for that matter, then you'd best stop all the whining and just get used to the minor idiosyncracies of 12TET. It's the only practical, versatile solution.:

Amen, although you're preaching to the choir in my case.

Unless you are playing Turkish, Arabic, or some other form of music that uses some form of just intonation - and no harmony per se - in a few related key centers, then you can use "pure" tuning.

Other than that, make peace with the 12th root of 2!

[sbhikes]

You can tune the second string by ear only if you can hear it. I'm usually trying to tune in a noisy setting so I rely on my tuner a lot.

[Mandoplumb]

Thanks.
and I bet y'all played in G an awful lot!

You're right, at least G position. Capoed to A and B, but that is the keys most bluegrass is played in, sometimes a D,E, or F maybe an occasional C, heavy use of capo. True not a lot of minors but then again not used a lot in bluegrass. What is wrong with tuning that best suits the music you're playing. If playing different music I would probably "sweeten" the tuning differently.

[sblock]

You're right, at least G position. Capoed to A and B, but that is the keys most bluegrass is played in, sometimes a D,E, or F maybe an occasional C, heavy use of capo. True not a lot of minors but then again not used a lot in bluegrass. What is wrong with tuning that best suits the music you're playing. If playing different music I would probably "sweeten" the tuning differently.

The problem here, which you may be missing somewhat, is that "sweetening" only works for fixing up a single key (or perhaps a few related keys). At the same time, it makes other keys sound worse! So yes, if you only play out of G positions on a guitar with a a capo, sweetening can work very well. Ditto for the 5-string banjo. But on the mandolin, you don't usually use a capo. And sweetening for the key of A makes things really bad for the key of B. Sweetening for G messes up D. And so on. So unless you're prepared to retune every time you switch keys, it's not a practical way to go with the mandolin. Better to stick with the best compromise, which is 12TET. And that holds equally well for bluegrass as it does for other types of music. This is not a "bluegrass" thing: it's a a (Western) musical thing.

[Mandoplumb]

Maybe our terminology is different, what I refer to as sweeten, Dad used to call splitting the difference. If a string sounded sharp in a certain chord you flatten it ever so slightly in one chord so it was ever so slightly sharp in the other instead of dead on in one and way sharp in the other. For instant the B string on a guitar open dead on with a tuner will sound sharp when noted for the D, so you split the difference. This would correct a problem stated by sblock not create one. I would not make one chord so "perfect" that it destroyed another. And I disagree that the music you are playing doesn't matter, that it is a western thing. Sweeting the B string as stated may make a C4th dim sound terrible but if you never use it in the music you play what does it matter.

[MontanaMatt]

I just got done with our first gig with all band members using the stroboclip hd with individual sweeteners, and it could be observational bias, but things fit better, and all parts seemed to blend and fit in the mix nice. We are a four piece; mando, guitar, banjo, bass. The intuitive reading of the strobe made everyone get there asap. This is probably better suited to be in a Peterson thread, but having the whole band tune with the same rigs and the same precision was very revealing.

After a few gigs with the Stroboclip, my guitar player started using the capo function and noticed it's beneficial adjustment when capoed...so I used it on s few songs in B with my mando, pretending I was capoed in b, sure enough, things sounded awesome. Sblock's comment about having to adjust for each capo move is mute, as guitar and banjo need to tune for capo changes anyway, so the only extra time it to hit the capo adjust button on the Peterson.
The change in tone is very noticeable, even if only to us, our biggest critics.
Happy pickin, and tuning!

[stevedenver]

"This has to do with "untempering" the 12TET tuning that tuners use."

Well said....

This seems to be about a different issue than how dry or wet we tune the pairs of strings.

So-called "sweetened" tuning schemes are designed to allow instruments designed for 12 tone equal temperament tuning (12TET) to sound more like systems such as mean-tone tuning... in a few closely related keys.

For centuries many keyboard instruments such as pipe organs were tuned to various tunings that were NOT 12TET.

Mostly what bothers string players - I've seen this issue on regular guitar and steel guitar forums - is the 3rds, which is why I mentioned mean-tone tuning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament

"by choosing an appropriate size for the tempered fifths, may produce a perfect major third or a perfect minor third, but not both at the same time."

It's those 3rds that seem to need "sweetening", as long as you play basic chords and do not get too far away on the circle of 5ths.

Just intonation is another system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

Anyway, this is a different rabbit hole!

David...listened to your music....wide range...nicely done!

[Eric Platt]

This is a great discussion. Even though I've only been playing mandolin for 6 months I immediately went for the Sam Bush method to tune the second string of the course by ear. Usually go for a unison sound, but will occasionally accept a slightly wet sound. Depending on who I'm playing with. When there is more than one accordion, then I find a slight wetness makes things sound more cohesive. Been using the Korg Sledgehammer Pro as I like the display best, but the Pederson and Polytune also work well.

Then again, the other mandolin player in our group uses an older model Intelli tuner and his accuracy is no different than mine.

Thing is, on guitar, my method has always been use a tuner, then make the G note on the E strings in tune with the open G and the D note on the B string to be in tune with the open D. It's just the way I like the compromise.