Tuning the pairs: 100% unison, or ... ?

[jesserules]

Just watching a Sam Bush video, & he said he tuned one string with an electric tuner & then the other one to it by ear. With an apparent implication that if both strings registered exactly the same on the tuner they might not sound quite right as a pair.

As a sort of analogue: accordions, which have several reeds for each note, come in a variety of tunings - from Cajun style with all reeds in strict unison (referred to as a "dry" tuning) through varyingly non-unison ("wet") tunings like the Musette style associated with French café type music.

How do you like to tune the pairs: 100% unison, or ... ?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Well,that's one thing that Sam Bush & myself would agree on. Piano tuners do that all the time. I do exactly what Sam Bush does,because i've most likley found out exactly what he's found out,that tuning 2 strings in a pair 'exactly' to a tuner,won't sound right. Tune one string to the tuner,then tune the second string to it,until they 'beat together' & sound like one string = ''In Unison'' - then you've got it,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

we had a discussion about just that recently here...

[Tobin]

Tuners are not accurate enough to get the pairs in phase with each other. You have to do it by ear to get them truly in unison, and you have to learn to listen for the "beats". When they're in unison, they sound like one string and the volume will suddenly jump as you bring the second string up to perfect unison with the first.

Some instruments may sound rustic or quaint with wet tuning. The mandolin isn't one of them, IMHO. It just sounds terrible when the courses are out of phase. Tune it!

[MontanaMatt]

I've just acquired a Stroboclip HD, and it's been noticeable how inaccurate my other clip tuners were at producing unison tuning. In a noisy gig situation, I can't use my ear, so you gotta trust the tuner.

[DavidKOS]

I don't care if it's with a tuner or by ear, I want both strings in a pair to be exactly in tune with each other, no chorus effect/wet tuning.

[Randi Gormley]

Yeah, even if they're slightly off, i can tell when I play it. drives me nuts.

[Toni Schula]

I don't care if it's with a tuner or by ear, I want both strings in a pair to be exactly in tune with each other, no chorus effect/wet tuning.

Same here.

One important use of double courses is improved tremolo performance. While one string is hit by the pick it is for a short moment muted before it is 'plugged' again. During that time the other string continued to vibrate and so tremolo can be much smoother than e.g. on a guitar. This is for me the reason for double courses.

But as written in annother thread here, you will not find six members here having the exact same idea about good tone, so don't let me stop you from doing it differently

[MikeEdgerton]

To answer the question posed in the subject. Sometimes.

[colorado_al]

Blessing and curse of perfect pitch

[Bertram Henze]

I'm a wet tuning convert, but I play an OM. Within the pitch range of the OM, wet tuning works best with the G course, and less so the higher the pitch. For a mandolin, it would be hard to do AND sound pleasant. Also, there is a fine line between pleasant and unpleasant wetness, expressed by the beat frequency: I tune one string of a course to exact pitch, and tune the other string up from below until the beat frequency goes below, say , 0.5 Hz. For that, the base frequency of the course should be low and tuning precision and tuning stability should be excellent, both challenges the mandolin is not really good at. If it sounds bad, it's not wet, it's flooded.

[foldedpath]

I rely on the tuner (first version Peterson Stroboclip) and aim for 100% unison. Anything else drives me nuts.

Tuning up one string to a digital tuner and the second string by ear sounds good in theory, but it doesn't account for potential neck movement if you always tune in the preferred "up" direction, which puts tension on the neck as you raise the pitch of the second string.

It depends on how flexible your neck is, but the neck on my mandolin is just barely flexible enough that tuning up the second string by ear, can very slightly lower the pitch of the initial string that was set by the tuner. So I inevitably have to go back and forth with the tuner, checking and tweaking the pitch on both strings after tuning up the second one by ear. And then another pass across all the strings, because tuning up one course can throw the others off.

If you have a mandolin with a more stable neck than this, you may not have this problem. It doesn't happen on my Weber OM, which has the longer scale and a more substantial neck. So on that instrument, I usually trust that the first string isn't moving when tuning up the second one by ear. I still do a final pass with the tuner on all the OM courses, to make sure I'm still at the target pitch for each one.

It's easy to get fooled that you're "in tune" when the courses sound perfectly in unison with no "wet" beats, but that doesn't mean they're actually at the target pitch!

[Mark Gunter]

+1 to Kirby's reply, most tuners are just not accurate enough, so listen to the beats. The healthy human ear can detect unison much more accurately than most tuners. I recently purchased the new generation stroboclip HD tuner, and find it pretty easy to arrive at unison using the tuner most of the time, but still check by ear.

foldedpath comments are dead on too. Just using the tuning knobs can put a little stress on the neck momentarily, which has to be accounted for, and raising or lowering the pitch of a course of strings can affect the pitch of the other strings by changing the tension along the neck, so I often fiddle with the strings two or more passes before I'm satisfied. I hate for a course to be out of unison ... but keeping a mandolin always in tune is a lot of trouble IMO. That's why you see so many of the top notch players constantly fiddling with their tuning buttons between numbers

[Ivan Kelsall]

Foldedpath - You're spot on,that's why it sometimes takes a couple (or more) tune ups to get everything settled ie. the neck's moved as much as it will move. You need to do that after re-stringing as the neck's settled back. As you apply more tension,so the neck flexes upwards until it's gone as far as it can. A similar thing but in tiny amounts happens when tuning. Only when the strings, when picked as a pair,sound like one note,are they in unison regardless of tuner accuracy. Any banjo player on here will tell you how many 'tune ups' it takes to get a banjo tuned correctly. The banjo/pot neck joint is very flexible,& tuning up one string even by a semi-tone will throw the others out. Then you have the problem of getting the second (B) string in harmony with the 3rd (G) string & the 1st (D) strings - always a compromise. That's why sometime you see a banjo bridge sloping towards the 5th string side, trying to compensate for the tuning error = a PITA every time !!,

Ivan

[William Smith]

Yep definition of a mandolin- real fun to tune in a noisy bar/gig! Peterson stroboclips are fantastic I believe, sometimes you still have to tweak by ear! That's because the smoke in a bar, moisture from your bottle of suds, the hooting "screaming for free bird or dueling banjos" occasional bar fight, broken bottles, stomping of feet, etc..That's how we roll in Pennsyltucky. Ya see this all falls to the category I've heard so much "close enough for bluegrass" I personally don't like that saying! I told everyone in one band I was in you all need the new Peterson Stroboclip! Then were all on the same page! How the H--l can you all be in tune with each other when there are 5 different tuners? I yi yi man! Ok that's my rant for the day.

[stevedenver]

Yep definition of a mandolin- real fun to tune in a noisy bar/gig! Peterson stroboclips are fantastic I believe, sometimes you still have to tweak by ear! That's because the smoke in a bar, moisture from your bottle of suds, the hooting "screaming for free bird or dueling banjos" occasional bar fight, broken bottles, stomping of feet, etc..That's how we roll in Pennsyltucky. Ya see this all falls to the category I've heard so much "close enough for bluegrass" I personally don't like that saying! I told everyone in one band I was in you all need the new Peterson Stroboclip! Then were all on the same page! How the H--l can you all be in tune with each other when there are 5 different tuners? I yi yi man! Ok that's my rant for the day.

True.

I too seek unison, and #2 by ear, if possible.
Frankly, i revel in my polytune tuner.
When i cant hear, when my ears decieve.....( not sure why but there are times when my ears seem to go on strike for accuracy, fatigue?)

Odd, though.
Courses of strings were implemented for increased volume on early gut string acoustic instruments.

Yet, imho, 4 string mandolins do not sound like mandolins. Yet electric versions are as loud as one wishes.

There must be something characteristically mando even in perfect unison.

My point? Uh ....im not sure, other than mandos need 8 to sound like a mando.

[UsuallyPickin]

Unison here... To my ear a higher pitch is a bit easier to hear if the strings are together or not. So one string with the tuner then the second one then check them up the neck. R/

[Tobin]

Odd, though.
Courses of strings were implemented for increased volume on early gut string acoustic instruments.

Yet, imho, 4 string mandolins do not sound like mandolins. Yet electric versions are as loud as one wishes.

There must be something characteristically mando even in perfect unison.

My point? Uh ....im not sure, other than mandos need 8 to sound like a mando.

It's important to understand that true unison is never achieved during actual playing. No matter how finely you tune your mandolin before you start, you will not get unison notes once you start fretting them. It is impossible to ensure even finger pressure on both strings, no sideways bend to either of them, perfectly straight and even frets, perfectly matched slots at the saddle, etc. Even the way your pick moves across the strings will make a difference. It's true that an 8-string mandolin sounds different than a 4-string mandolin, and it's because the courses are just slightly out of unison. But that is a function of it being played, not being purposely tuned out of unison.

[jesserules]

It's important to understand that true unison is never achieved during actual playing. No matter how finely you tune your mandolin before you start, you will not get unison notes once you start fretting them. It is impossible to ensure even finger pressure on both strings, no sideways bend to either of them, perfectly straight and even frets, perfectly matched slots at the saddle, etc. Even the way your pick moves across the strings will make a difference. It's true that an 8-string mandolin sounds different than a 4-string mandolin, and it's because the courses are just slightly out of unison. But that is a function of it being played, not being purposely tuned out of unison.

I wonder if anyone has ever investigated tuning the pairs slightly out of unison in a way that would have them sounding in unison when fretted?

There are various theories for tuning guitar strings varyingly off pitch relative to an electronic tuner to make them sound better when fretted. James Taylor did a video re his way of doing that which went viral (among acoustic guitar players that is). Individual single strings in that case, but the concept of tuning "off" to ensure euphonious chords when several of those strings are played simultaneously is perhaps similar to what might (?) be done with mandolin pairs.

[Tobin]

I wonder if anyone has ever investigated tuning the pairs slightly out of unison in a way that would have them sounding in unison when fretted?

Personally, I think it would be an exercise in futility. Being off when fretted is either going to be a fret problem (i.e. deeply worn frets that no longer give the proper note on both strings) or a finger issue. And since your finger attacks the string differently at each fret, and sometimes differently even at the same fret (playing a chop chord versus melody playing, for example), there would not be any one single adjustment to compensate for it. I'd rather just play a mandolin that is properly built, well set up, and tuned properly. Any slight differences beyond that point are natural and normal to the mandolin's unique sound.

[Willie Poole]

At home I tune one string with a tuner and do its partner by ear like has been mentioned, when playing a gig I tune both strings of a pair to the guitar...I very seldom have to tune again during the whole show...Years ago before electronic tuners we all just tuned to th guitar, if I could just keep the dang banjo player to quit playing long enough for me to fine tune I would be a happy camper...

Willie

[David L]

There are various theories for tuning guitar strings varyingly off pitch relative to an electronic tuner to make them sound better when fretted. James Taylor did a video re his way of doing that which went viral (among acoustic guitar players that is). Individual single strings in that case, but the concept of tuning "off" to ensure euphonious chords when several of those strings are played simultaneously is perhaps similar to what might (?) be done with mandolin pairs.

This has to do with "untempering" the 12TET tuning that tuners use. This makes some chords and keys acoustically "sweeter", but makes other chord voicings worse. This is a completely different issue than tuning the pairs equally or not.

[jesserules]

This has to do with "untempering" the 12TET tuning that tuners use. This makes some chords and keys acoustically "sweeter", but makes other chord voicings worse. This is a completely different issue than tuning the pairs equally or not.

I was thinking it wasn't an entirely different issue. "Sweetness" of chords and sweetness of paired strings are perhaps somewhat similar considerations?

[David L]

I was thinking it wasn't an entirely different issue. "Sweetness" of chords and sweetness of paired strings are perhaps somewhat similar considerations?

The "sweetness" of chords has to do with how different notes interact with each other and how closely they follow the overtone series. The "sweetness" of paired strings has to do with how closely the fundamentals match up and create "beats".

[DavidKOS]

This has to do with "untempering" the 12TET tuning that tuners use. This makes some chords and keys acoustically "sweeter", but makes other chord voicings worse. This is a completely different issue than tuning the pairs equally or not.

I was thinking it wasn't an entirely different issue. "Sweetness" of chords and sweetness of paired strings are perhaps somewhat similar considerations?

The "sweetness" of chords has to do with how different notes interact with each other and how closely they follow the overtone series. The "sweetness" of paired strings has to do with how closely the fundamentals match up and create "beats".

"This has to do with "untempering" the 12TET tuning that tuners use."

Well said....

This seems to be about a different issue than how dry or wet we tune the pairs of strings.

So-called "sweetened" tuning schemes are designed to allow instruments designed for 12 tone equal temperament tuning (12TET) to sound more like systems such as mean-tone tuning... in a few closely related keys.

For centuries many keyboard instruments such as pipe organs were tuned to various tunings that were NOT 12TET.

Mostly what bothers string players - I've seen this issue on regular guitar and steel guitar forums - is the 3rds, which is why I mentioned mean-tone tuning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament

"by choosing an appropriate size for the tempered fifths, may produce a perfect major third or a perfect minor third, but not both at the same time."

It's those 3rds that seem to need "sweetening", as long as you play basic chords and do not get too far away on the circle of 5ths.

Just intonation is another system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

Anyway, this is a different rabbit hole!