Tuners on Mando / Opinions

[Sheephead Shawn]

Long time Lurker, new Joiner/poster.

Just bought a Black Ice new, built in 2013, signed by Bruce when in the new Oregon shop but still inspected by Bruce so I feel it's one of the old ones etc....; at one time had a Bitterroot and sold it to pay a bill (I told my Son that's a great title for a song by the way). It is incredible with a Red Spruce top and couldn't be happier. Have met Bruce quite a few times and he's total class, lots of mutual friends etc.... BUT

When changing my strings for the 2nd time since owning it, one of the tuning buttons screw came loose when screwing the button counter clockwise to tighten the string (one of the G strings). When you turn the button clockwise the screw turns with the button and stays tight, but when turned counter clockwise it sticks at times and eventually unscrews.

Easy to put back together, well kind of easy if you wear reading glasses and have tweezers, hemostats and other stuff for small stuff. Plan to let a Weber guy look at it when I next change strings so I don't have the nervous breakdown I almost had when it unexpectedly happened.

Question, why not put Waverly 's on a Mandolin that retails for around $5K? I've heard some say that there's really no difference, but DUH? TO me they're clearly better and worth the extra if getting a high end Mando.

[MikeEdgerton]

Because buying a set of $100.00 tuners is cheaper than buying a set of $500.00 plus tuners. In the mandolin world that instrument isn't really at the high end of things.

Waverly screws can come out as well, I have them on my F5G. The good news is you can put Waverly tuners on pretty much anything in the aftermarket.

[Sheephead Shawn]

So a suggested retail of $5-$6K is not "really at the high end", I know it's not a Gibson F5 or a Poe/Pava or Gilchrist, but it's not a Morgan Monroe/Kentucky either. Guess it's not High End unless it exceeds, what, $10K or $15K. Come on Mike, I'm new and all, but maybe now I get why Bruce left Gibson............... the unmerited ego of the Gibson peeps. Think I'll just Lurk for now on. Goodness, and you're a moderator?

[Tom Wright]

I had a Weber Special Edition, low on their scale. I bought it used, and found it was missing a tuner button screw. Inquiring if they were replaceable, Mary simply sent me one in a first-class envelope, no charge. I used a tiny drop of glue to prevent loosening. These screws should be fixed with Loctite or any mild glue applied on the threads.

High end prices are $25K, I'd say. $5K is mid-price. $1-2K low end. Waverly tuners are sweet but an affectation having no value to the sound or operation. In my experience, Grover, Gotoh, and Schaller make fine products.

[MikeEdgerton]

You asked a question and it was answered, it wasn't snarky it was the answer. I had the same problem with the prices when I first came here years ago, I have a Gibson F5G. It came with Grover tuners on it. You had to get up close (and probably still do) to 15G to get Waverly tuners standard. There's nothing wrong with your Weber other than you have a tuner issue but 5G isn't at the top of the price range no matter how you look at it. It has nothing to do with Gibson or any other brand, and yes, I am a moderator.

Now, back to the question you didn't ask. How to fix the problem. If you post a picture of the tuners themselves we can identify the brand and perhaps point you in the direction of fixing it. It might be something simple.

[Loubrava]

Well a screw is a screw Waverly or otherwise and they can get loose I learned the hard way. I had a tuner screw fall out hit the couch never to be seen again now every time I change strings I check em. A lot builders don't feel there is any advantage to putting Waverly tuners on so why pass on that cost to us ? High end or not you have very nice mando. enjoy it & put some Waverly's on it if you think there worth the money.
Lou

[OneChordTrick]

Next time it comes off put a drop of threadlock on the screw and it should stay there. I'd use Loctite 243 but I'm not sure what the US equivalent is.

[Sheephead Shawn]

Mike, I've been familiar with Mandolin pricing before "coming here" to the forum, another smug/condescending comment. As far as the question you've told me I didn't ask, I already know the brand / model and have the resolution planned. Taking my lifetime warranty Weber to a qualified individual to do with it what he feels appropriate. If glue the screw then great.
To close, I've been around ................. and know lots on Acoustic Instruments.............. what's the old saying by Bob, "Don't underestimate me and I won't underestimate you"..............
Here's the crux of my point, in getting back to the point, let's look at Boutique, high end Guitars (I know Mandolins are different Mike so I'll comment to your correcting me on that before you even do), but in terms of pricing...................... Bourgeois, Huss Dalton, Froggy Bottom, Collings, Santa Cruz, Lowden, Goodall all use Waverly exclusively I believe, and most of these are at $5K or so, some obviously go up to $8K or even $$12K - $15K. Point being, at $6K why is it justified by these brilliant luthiers, but in the Mando world one has to go up to $15K to justify another couple hundred bucks? Personally I do not feel the difference is just negligible, I feel it's significant. Maybe it's because I got screwed by the screw, haha. You can SEE the difference in quality.
In closing, the Black Ice is comparable to the Yellowstone, and 2nd on their tiering under the Fern and River.........certainly not on Weber's low end like the Gallatin and Bitterroot. Again not a Poe / Pava or 1920's A Snakehead, but ................

[MikeEdgerton]

Have a nice day.

[George R. Lane]

They are Grover 309's more than likely and yes they do come loose. If you use Locktite make sure it is the blue one and not the red. The red one needs heat to loosen.

[AlanN]

Next time it comes off put a drop of threadlock on the screw and it should stay there.

+1

[Tom Haywood]

I've observed that the use of Waverlys on new guitars is a lot more common than on mandolins. I feel sure sure it has to do with the amount of profit at the price point and the comfort level of the builder/manufacturer with giving a long-term warranty. My experience is that the equivalent price point of a $5,000 guitar really is around $10,000 or more for a mandolin due mainly to the labor cost to build the instrument to that quality, thus the profit margin for a $5,000 mandolin is substantially less than for a $5,000 dollar guitar. Also, mandolin tuners have 1/3 more moving parts which might eventually fail. It only makes sense to use something that is highly reliable and priced such that repair or replacement is not prohibitive for the average owner, unless it is a custom instrument. You can certainly ask Weber to install Waverlys for you.

[Jeff Mando]

[mandroid]

Question, why not put Waverly 's on a Mandolin that retails for around $5K?

because you may not buy it if they charged $5500?

[colorado_al]

Loctite red.
Problem solved.

[foldedpath]

I've observed that the use of Waverlys on new guitars is a lot more common than on mandolins. I feel sure sure it has to do with the amount of profit at the price point and the comfort level of the builder/manufacturer with giving a long-term warranty.

There is also that difference in number of strings -- six tuner gears vs. eight -- so there is already an added expense for equivalent mandolin tuners. Probably not the main reason, but it may be a factor in why they show up more often on guitars.

I've always been able to specify exactly the tuners I want on a custom order, but with a factory built product purchased "off the shelf," I don't worry about things like tuners that I can upgrade later. There is just a different expectation with custom vs. factory-made in my world.

FWIW, I put Waverleys on my Lebeda F5 mandolin and on my Weber Yellowstone OM. Both came with Schallers, and it was a fun project to do the upgrade. Also an opportunity to decide whether I wanted gold or chrome finish, or pearl or ebony buttons. What some might see as cheap tuners on fairly expensive instrument, I see as an opportunity to customize to my personal taste (which turned out to be gold + ebony buttons). And it kept these instruments $500 more affordable when making the purchase.

[colorado_al]

Also important to realize that upgrading to Waverly tuners for $500 is nice for you, but it will not result in a $500 increase in resale value. It might help your instrument sell easier, but not for $500 more than the market will pay without the Waverly tuners.
Also, there are many options that are better than stock tuners for $200 or less that will perform as well.
I think many builders, especially Weber now owned by Two Old Hippies, that install the least expensive tuners that they can get away with.

[allenhopkins]

...Question, why not put Waverly 's on a Mandolin that retails for around $5K? I've heard some say that there's really no difference, but DUH? TO me they're clearly better and worth the extra if getting a high end Mando.

Your mind's pretty much made up; why ask us? Mike's reply was realistic, not insulting. You have an excellent instrument, and if you consider Waverly tuners an upgrade, go for it!

I only have Waverly tuners on one instrument, a Martin 00-28G/00-42 conversion, and I've had screws loosen on them as well. They have a nice feel, keep the guitar in tune, and I'm as rule pretty clueless as to tuner brands, as long as they work.

If it makes a difference to you, and you see it as an improvement, it's your money and your mandolin. Asking for opinions on a Cafe thread -- well, don't be surprised if you get a few. Including ones with which you may disagree.

There are "mandolin snobs," for sure, but Mike's not one. Me either; I spend most of my mando time on a $250 Strad-O-Lin, with my F-5 in the closet. We are, honestly, trying to help and contribute.

And, have a nice day.

[Sheephead Shawn]

Regrets to Mike, Allen, George and Hank; I guess maybe I get defensive with my new Mandolin, kind of like one might with a kid they're overprotective of.............anyway, in hindsight, didn't mean to overreact, and I look forward to the future dialogue; Sheephead Shawn owes the group a "round on me".

[HonketyHank]

thanks SS and welcome to the group. all in all we are diverse but similar, friendly but crotchety, and always interesting.

[Dave Sheets]

Not to unduly flog a rapidly dying horse here, but it looks like a set of Waverly guitar tuners start at something like $120 at Stew Mac, while mandolin tuners start at $420. So I'm thinking there is a reason why you see more good guitar makers regularly using Waverlys, while they are a bit rarer on mandolins. $60 bucks extra for Waverlys on a good guitar is no big deal, an almost $400 premium for Waverlys on the same grade mandolin seems like a lot.

[George R. Lane]

Shawn,
No offense taken. I have a wonderful Yellowstone myself and I have gone back and forth over changing the Grovers to a set of Rubners or Waverly's. One of these days I will have make the change.

[Dale Ludewig]

To echo a little bit here the note from Dave Sheets, Waverly guitar tuners are a bargain compared to the mandolin tuners. I build both mandolins and guitars and there's scant comparison in the effort involved. I've put Waverly tuners on a number of mandolins and they're great but compared to other options like Rubners, not really worth it. I haven't dealt with Alessi's (sp?), but they're also highly regarded by other builders.

And Shawn- welcome to the cafe. This is a good place.

[Sheephead Shawn]

To echo a little bit here the note from Dave Sheets, Waverly guitar tuners are a bargain compared to the mandolin tuners. I build both mandolins and guitars and there's scant comparison in the effort involved. I've put Waverly tuners on a number of mandolins and they're great but compared to other options like Rubners, not really worth it. I haven't dealt with Alessi's (sp?), but they're also highly regarded by other builders.

And Shawn- welcome to the cafe. This is a good place.

Thanks Dale, do the Rubner's match in terms of the Footprint of the screws going in to the head stock. They're striking visually, maybe will entertain them as an option over Waverly's.
Thanks for the advice man.

[colorado_al]

On most tuners the post spacing will match but the screw spacing will not. If you change out to Waverly, Rubner, or likely any other brand, you'll have to fill and drill, as they say.
PS - I love the Rubner tuners on my Franzke and changed my Collings over to them too