Tuners on Mando / Opinions

[pops1]

Instead of loctite, all you need is a little fingernail polish. It works wonderfully as a loctite, but comes off easily. It's cheaper, and does the job quite well. Color of your choice.

[almeriastrings]

Bourgeois, Huss Dalton, Froggy Bottom, Collings, Santa Cruz, Lowden, Goodall all use Waverly exclusively I believe, and most of these are at $5K or so, some obviously go up to $8K or even $$12K - $15K. Point being, at $6K why is it justified by these brilliant luthiers, but in the Mando world one has to go up to $15K to justify another couple hundred bucks?

Waverly guitar tuners start at $128.
Waverly mandolin tuners start at $451 (and go up to $546).

That's why. That's a large 'front end' cost in production terms.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Tom Ellis who's mandolins could never be called low / mid priced,will put either Waverley tuners or Gotoh tuners on any of his mandolins if requested. Judging by how superbly well the Gotoh's on my own Ellis "A" style work,his confidence in them is well placed.

IMHO - $5 - $6k,these days is just over the mid-price border & maybe as a percentage of the total cost,mandolins in that price bracket don't warrant the 'extra' cost of Waverly standard tuners - of course the builder could always offer them as an up-grade ?.The Schaller 'reverse' tuners on my Lebeda mandolin also work superbly well - again,they're less than half the cost of Waverlys. Only if the tuners (of any make) fitted to a mandolin that i owned didn't work well,would i choose to replace them,
Ivan

[Dale Ludewig]

Shawn, as already stated, the post spacing on almost all tuners is 29/32. I had Rubners on one of my own mandolins and had the opportunity to pick up a set of Waverlys at very good price. I swapped them out and the Waverlys dropped right in. I probably had to drill new screw holes; I don't remember. But you do have to look out for different size bushings.

[Billy Packard]

Trailing along here...!

The tuners on my Weber Fern are gold plated with pearl buttons and I don't know what brand they are--only that Bruce Weber said curtly, "we don't use Waverlys". He said they weren't worth the money. I bought the instrument new and the original tuners worked beautifully for the first couple of years. Then one of the buttons failed and the makers couldn't find a replacement so they sent a whole, brand new set! This new set works perfectly, in fact the mandolin rarely goes out of tune.

Now...The tuners on my Gilchrist really bug me. I don't know what brand they are except they are not Waverly. They stick, some are hard to turn--they will slip, VERY ANNOYING! I'd like to change them but something Stephen said once about how he had to modify this or that ( I'm not a wrencher ) gives me pause...

Come to think about it, the Gibson F4 Hybrid I have has Waverly tuners and they work just fine.

What ever the brand is, having perfectly operating tuners is a basic requirement.


Billy

billypackardmandolin.com

[allenhopkins]

...having perfectly operating tuners is a basic requirement.

I have quite a few mando-family "oldies" by companies such as Regal, Washburn, Dobro, National, Waldo, Strad-O-Lin etc. -- yes, and Gibson -- with original tuners that would stretch to be called "perfectly operating." They're functional, sometimes quirky, but I leave 'em where they are, put up with occasional difficulties of stickage and slippage, in the interest of keeping the instruments in their original form.

Not everyone would want to do this, but I sometimes think we obsess a bit too much over tuners. If I can jockey the instrument(s) into proper tuning, and if they stay there as a rule, I'm pretty happy. I keep tuners Tri-Flo lubricated when needed, check screws now and then for tightness, and lubricate nut slots with graphite to allow strings to slide through and distribute string tension as evenly as possible.

Not to contradict people who demand the ultimate in tuner technology, but sometimes mild idiosyncrasies are the price I'm willing to pay for having a vintage original instrument, that looks, sounds and plays pretty close to the way it did when it was new.

Just my 2¢.

[colorado_al]

I think on vintage instruments it makes sense not to change them out if they are passable.
On a modern instrument you should have tuners that work well. It boggles my mind that a builder like Collings will use crappy tuners on their lower end models though. I get that they are trying to keep costs down but the Golden Age tuners they use are really poor. They should spend an extra $10 and at least get Grovers.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Billy - The tuners on my Weber "Fern" are Gold plated Schallers with 'faux' MOP buttons. They were a tad stiff when i got the mandolin,but i applied a touch of Frank Ford's tuner tips & they work perfectly smoothly now. The 'reverse' Schaller tuners on my Lebeda have real MOP buttons on them & they work perfectly as well. The Gotoh's on my Ellis,as i said work very smoothly indeed. Tom Ellis wouldn't use them if they weren't at the very least 'good',
Ivan

[foldedpath]

Not to contradict people who demand the ultimate in tuner technology, but sometimes mild idiosyncrasies are the price I'm willing to pay for having a vintage original instrument, that looks, sounds and plays pretty close to the way it did when it was new.

Sure, I can see that as a different category. I've replaced the tuners on several instruments with Waverley (or the equivalent), but they're all relatively recent builds. Nothing dating back more than 15 years.

My one surviving vintage instrument (after the Great Guitar Purge of a couple years ago) is a 1930's steel "fiddle edge" Dobro, with original tuners. Original everything, as far as I can tell. So even though they're stiff, and they squeak and pop like they're going to break every time I tune up, I won't replace them. Not unless they actually break. Luckily, a Dobro kept in Open D with fairly heavy strings and a huge V-neck profile just doesn't have to be tuned up as frequently as my other instruments.

[Eric Platt]

Well, I happily changed out the vintage tuners on my A Jr. with Golden Age tuners. Now they act like real tuners.

I personally notice a difference between the Grovers on my LM-220 and the Schallers on my Breedlove. The Schallers are a definite step above, in this instance, on these two mandolins.

There are Waverly tuners on my main Gibson guitar. But those were added by the prior owner. I wouldn't have bothered as on guitar, in general, I usually don't notice a difference between Waverly and Gotoh or similar tuners.

[Austin Bob]

Long time Lurker, new Joiner/poster.

Question, why not put Waverly 's on a Mandolin that retails for around $5K? I've heard some say that there's really no difference, but DUH? TO me they're clearly better and worth the extra if getting a high end Mando.

Fair question, lots of folks here, including me, have put Waverlys on mandolins in that price range because we wanted (arguably), the best tuners we could find.

But you can't add that much cost to a mandolin without either raising the price, or skimping elsewhere on the fit/finish, etc. So it all boils down to price points and economics.

The Schaller GrandTune have also received excellent reviews, and cost half of what Waverlys do.

Like others said earlier, screws can come lose on any tuners, I inspect mine every time I change a string.

[DataNick]

To add to the mix of Waverly tuners on mandolins, Paul Duff puts Waverlys on his A models that last time I checked, retailed for about $5K...YMMV

[Ray(T)]

Interestingly, none of my three Santa Cruz guitars came with Waverlys!

[Billy Packard]

I did it!! I ordered a set of Schaller GrandTune Satin Pearl with Ebony buttons for my Gilchrist 1993 A3.

I'm so excited! The original tuners (Gotoh) are shot and the upgrade is way past due. From all I've been able to find about the new GrandTune product they will be the permanent tuners going forward.

They're not cheap, $211.10 delivered from Schaller, but that's less than half the cost of Waverlys which I can't afford anyway.

I'll update when they arrive.

Billy

[Austin Bob]

I did it!! I ordered a set of Schaller GrandTune Satin Pearl with Ebony buttons for my Gilchrist 1993 A3.

I'm so excited! The original tuners (Gotoh) are shot and the upgrade is way past due. From all I've been able to find about the new GrandTune product they will be the permanent tuners going forward.

They're not cheap, $211.10 delivered from Schaller, but that's less than half the cost of Waverlys which I can't afford anyway.

I'll update when they arrive.

Billy

I think you will like them, they have some excellent reviews, including one from Oliver Apitius, my builder. They look a bit more modern than the Waverlys, but they are quite fetching, at least to my eye.

[paul dirac]

Well, I happily changed out the vintage tuners on my A Jr. with Golden Age tuners. Now they act like real tuners.

I personally notice a difference between the Grovers on my LM-220 and the Schallers on my Breedlove. The Schallers are a definite step above, in this instance, on these two mandolins.

There are Waverly tuners on my main Gibson guitar. But those were added by the prior owner. I wouldn't have bothered as on guitar, in general, I usually don't notice a difference between Waverly and Gotoh or similar tuners.

Eric,
Mind telling me or linking to which specific Golden Age tuners fit on your Junior? And did the screw holes fit or did you have to fill and re-screw?
Thanks

[Jim Nollman]

I bought an Altman two-point a few years back. I first saw it advertised in the Cafe at a price I could not afford but which seemed about right given the brand. But it didn't sell, probably because the top had four long scratches across the top that looked like a cat's work.

Months later I saw the same instrument again up for sale, but now at a dramatic markdown. This time I called the seller, who not only agreed to my lowball counter-offer, but also agreed to let me try it out with no obligation for a few weeks.

As soon as I received it, I noticed that the original Calton case had been replaced by a $50 case. Much more surprising, the seller had also swapped out the original Waverly tuners for some real junk. Those two alterations readily explained his dramatic drop in price. I took the instrument to a luthier, who told me the scratches were entirely cosmetic, and he could make them disappear for $100.

So I bought it, and it has been my go-to instrument ever since. The first thing I did was change out the junk tuners for Rubners. I am impressed by their mechanical smoothness. It is my humble opinion that they are the best looking tuners on the market.

Bob Altman has told me that every instrument he's ever built has had Waverlys installed. For that reason alone, I feel that what the seller did to Bob's instrument was incredibly disrespectful. But that deed was already done. I'm a player, not a collector and certainly not a purist. Maybe that's why it has never occurred to me to replace the Altman's original Waverlys with new Waverlys. I can't think of any reason why I would want to spend twice the money on a product I like less than my Rubners.

[HoGo]

I will repeat myself but, IMHO, in 19 out of 20 cases, bad working tuners are result of poor installation or lack of care of the headstock end of instrument. Sometimes players even blame tuners for problems caused by bad nut slots. Swapping tuners for more expensive without checking of all important installation details can ruin them. Of course more solidly built Waverlies may hold longer than Schallers made of lesser materials but thay will eventually wear anyway. SO IMO all the options available are mostly cosmetic. The cheaper may require more time in setting them up for best performance but at the end they will all work fine.
Even the cheap Ping tuners can last many years without problem if adjusted and setup properly during installation the basic brass/steel combination will wear quite long if unnecessary tensions of improper instalation are not allowed and fit of the gears is checked and adjusted from time to time (they usually have just bent hooks that hold worms and can wear or bend away if hit and cause malfunction, but can be easily bent back). The more solid tuners can be lubed or run with polishing compound with a drill until they are smooth. Simple worm gear is very low tech and even the proverbial "chinese kid" can produce them in decent precision for this application.
As I posted before I've seen more than few old gypsy-made basses with handmade tuners - I mean REALLY handmade, the worm and wheel cut by hand with files etc. still working well after almost hundred years. A bit ugly with loose fit of the gears but string tension keeps them together without play when tuning up-down. Often with misaligned bent shafts (knocked by player) you just tighten the rivets or solder and starighten and they are good to go for another century.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I must agree with Adrian - all tuners,from low to high cost need absolute 'accuracy of fit' or they'll not work properly after a time.

The best thing i ever found regarding tuners in general,is Frank Ford's ''tune up your tuners'' advice on his website. The Schaller ''reverse'' tuners on my Lebeda were perfect from day one & i've left them alone - although i did back off the tightness on the gear screw & then re-tighten it 'finger tight' - ''just in case''. The Schallers on my Weber 'Fern' were far too stiff for comfort,so i loosened the gear screws & re-tightenened them 'finger tight',just so the feel firm,& they've worked as smooth as silk ever since.

The Gohto's on my Ellis are also very smooth indeed. I can't imagine any tuners working 'better'. Tom Ellis obviously has faith in them as a product & judging by the Gotoh's on mine,he's spot on,
Ivan

[Eric Platt]

Eric,
Mind telling me or linking to which specific Golden Age tuners fit on your Junior? And did the screw holes fit or did you have to fill and re-screw?
Thanks

Sorry I missed this. These are the ones I picked up - http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...in_Tuners.html

I kept the original bushings, although I had to take them off and then reinstall to get the tuners to lay flat. And I had to plug and redrill basically all the screw holes. I got the relic with black buttons and unless I tell someone they're not original no one suspects. At least from the front.

[MontanaMatt]

In regards to nice mandos with average tuners, I bought my custom elite Weber in 2007, with all the bells n whistles, factory direct. Triple side and top bound, hand selected "old stash" wood, three custom inlays (headstock and heal button trout, octave mayfly), armrest tailpiece, custom varnish color, upgraded to a Price case...tuners were never mentioned, they(Weber) just stuck on the regulars (I don't know what they are, and I don't particularly like them).
I was new to mando, but diving in deep. It was an expensive project, but I was throwing money at it. I didn't learn till later that Waverly was made down the road in my home town. I suspect that there might have been friction(not talking about tuning machines)

My new mando has Waverlys, love them btw. My band's guitar player, (James Dungan, phenomenal picker) is the guy who puts the Waverlys together at the shop in Bozeman, so part of the current premium price supports a great musician with a good job in Bozeman, MT, USA

[Ray(T)]

Sorry I missed this. These are the ones I picked up - http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...in_Tuners.html

I kept the original bushings, although I had to take them off and then reinstall to get the tuners to lay flat. And I had to plug and redrill basically all the screw holes. I got the relic with black buttons and unless I tell someone they're not original no one suspects. At least from the front.

Depends on the date of the "junior". It its anything before circa. 1924/5 those won't fit - you need the "Restoration" versions. If it's later, most A style tuners should fit - its down to the hole spacing which changed circa. 1924/5. Personally, I wouldn't wish those Golden Age tuners on anybody - I took them off my Clark GBOM. The Restoration tuners are OK though.

[Eric Platt]

Depends on the date of the "junior". It its anything before circa. 1924/5 those won't fit - you need the "Restoration" versions. If it's later, most A style tuners should fit - its down to the hole spacing which changed circa. 1924/5. Personally, I wouldn't wish those Golden Age tuners on anybody - I took them off my Clark GBOM. The Restoration tuners are OK though.

Mine's a 1929, so I knew they would fit. And they work. I understand that not all tuners work for everyone. Maybe I just lucked out.

[Hallmark498]

While the Waverly tuners are very nice, believe you would still need to check the screws ever so often. I thought about getting a years ago when my mandolin wouldn't stay in tune. Then I discovered how to lock the strings, problem solved.

Believe both my Gibson have Schaller tuners, they work just fine. My Collings has the Gotohs with the screws, they do come loose every once in awhile so I keep a little screw driver in the case and check every time the strings get changed.

You could make the same argument for mandolins coming with a Calton or Hoffee case

[Lorenzo LaRue]

I was always wondering why Waverly mando tuners were so much more. The guitar tuners starting at $128... 3 in lines times 2. So the mandolin turners ought to start at $170.67....4 in line times 2. So $451 seems way out of line.