What my audience prefers to hear (rant)

[catmandu2]

There are many types of audiences.

In terms of generalities - say, a farmers market or other open public venue: I think you may find that the folk duo is *more popular* than the art music performer. My guess is that folk/rock/et al are still more popular, generally, than classical.

*Asturias is a very popular and accessible piece in the classical guitar repertory.

[ProfChris]

I wonder why this works, then:



Is it the genre, where audiences are used to concentrated listening over long stretches of time?
Is it the instrument, that covers melody and accompaniment in one go? and that has a sound made to fall in love with?
Is it the looks of the player? Is it her left hand crawling across the fretboard like a giant spider in a fascinating way?
Is it the fact that she does not sing?

I think partly it's that the audience knows it has come to hear purely instrumental music.

Part of it is her communication of how lovely she thinks the music is - see e.g. 1.40-1.55.

I can't tell from the video how much the audience liked it - the applause seemed a little lukewarm to me. I think that for a bigger venue she would have needed to be a bit more flamboyant.

[Charlieshafer]

Yeah, parlor classical, beautifully played, but you come just for THAT. New members to the classical guitar scene might have been a little quiet. They understand the beauty, but might get a little tired of what seems sort of tedious. The problem is the single voice, all alone. Complex multi-part instrumentals will appeal to more people. Classical guitar recitals tend to get only that specific audience.

You won't drag a friend who is into rock and roll to this, but you would to a killer old-time band, like the Mammals, where they can really cook on the instrumentals. I think classical is sort of an outlier to this discussion. But as Prof says above, there's still some performance going on here, as she reacts to certain phrases. She might be a little on the calm side to really sell it, though.

Anyway, no matter what you're playing, it's always a sales job, at least if you want an audience.

[catmandu2]

Btw, I'm not complaining nor ascribing fault with the scene. It's been this way for thousands of years (that we know of). Art music has always been the purvey of minority classes of literati, monks, elites, so on. Music, custom, ritual for the masses has always been of a different type. Art still exists, yet the appeal of the artifact of mass culture seems to far exceed it.

[catmandu2]

Part of it is her communication of how lovely she thinks the music is - see e.g. 1.40-1.55.

I can't tell from the video how much the audience liked it - the applause seemed a little lukewarm to me. I think that for a bigger venue she would have needed to be a bit more flamboyant.

I wouldn't agree that a particular amount of demonstrativeness is required (for example at a concert/recital). Check out paul dooley, or maestro: https://youtu.be/CQspEjoPIik

Many performers just present with a stone stare - itself an impressive presentation, imo. Though I get the point about the visual being an effective element, generally. Another of my links, bei bei exemplifies the florid movements of artistic presentation (in CM).

*Or, rather that would explain my lack of appeal - I'm a stone-faced starer, or eyes-closed, or otherwise boring..

[Bertram Henze]

I can't tell from the video how much the audience liked it - the applause seemed a little lukewarm to me

The applause is about as wild and cheery as you'll ever get from a German classical audience. This is about serious music, not fun, after all

[Dagger Gordon]

I think partly it's that the audience knows it has come to hear purely instrumental music.

Part of it is her communication of how lovely she thinks the music is - see e.g. 1.40-1.55.

I can't tell from the video how much the audience liked it - the applause seemed a little lukewarm to me. I think that for a bigger venue she would have needed to be a bit more flamboyant.

There is quite a lot of dynamics in the music itself. Also note that Ana Vidovic brings a certain amount of 'dramatics' -(ok, maybe too strong a word) to how she accentuates the first note of each bar in the first part of the piece. Watch the use of her first finger on the bottom string in particular. It provides a certain visual and aural 'hook' which catches people's attention. Once she has sucked them in , as it were, then they are with her as the piece develops.


"I am an avid guitar junkie. Pierre bensusen concert almost made me comatose after four or five dadgad renditions."
I'm afraid I know what you mean, SteveDenver. I also find a lot of modern fingerstyle guitar playing like that. I think it is because the music itself is often rather dull, lacking the structure and dynamic qualities of the Albeniz piece, and actually often (it seems to me) a bit self-indulgent.

On the other hand, these guys seem to have no trouble:

[Dagger Gordon]

This guy knows how to put it across:check out the reaction of the girl at 4.53 min.

[Bertram Henze]

This guy knows how to put it across:check out the reaction of the girl at 4.53 min.

Those are the kind of girls who write "Love You" on their eyelids and dream of sailing away with Jack Sparrow.

Wild playing style - this giant pickguard is there for a reason, I guess. Next time, I'll have to try fixing an incense stick on my headstock, too.

[Dagger Gordon]

Those are the kind of girls who write "Love You" on their eyelids and dream of sailing away with Jack Sparrow. )

Don't tell me you're not jealous, Bertram!

[Ausdoerrt]

I find that audiences generally don't know what they want. If you're any good, you can convince them that what you do is it.

Bookers, on the other hand (especially in bars) tend to be one big bag of preconceived notions about what music people supposedly do and don't like. As a result, they tend to book samey, boring cover bands

With my busking band, we do a few pub classics, but other than that, it's mostly instrumental ITM/Celtic tunes. The tunes with vocals do tend to draw more attention - but you can still get a good reaction with instrumentals if you interact with the audience. Ain't gonna work if you just pluck away.

[Charlieshafer]

This guy knows how to put it across:check out the reaction of the girl at 4.53 min.

It's a sensitive new age Fabio. There's no beating that.

As to Ausdoerrt's comment on bars: they know exactly what they're doing. That's the stuff that makes bars go, musically anyway. The customers are there to party, not to think. Partying sells beverages, thinking...not so much. You really can't enter into any real discussion about live music when bar is involved, it's a totally different beast. Celtic music in pubs? Maybe slightly different, but there, one again, it's mostly an ambience thing. I'm sort of surprised that there, it hasn;t gotten to the point where they make the musicians dress like farmers and bring sheepdogs to lie at their feet.

[Ausdoerrt]

As to Ausdoerrt's comment on bars: they know exactly what they're doing. That's the stuff that makes bars go, musically anyway. The customers are there to party, not to think. Partying sells beverages, thinking...not so much. You really can't enter into any real discussion about live music when bar is involved, it's a totally different beast. Celtic music in pubs? Maybe slightly different, but there, one again, it's mostly an ambience thing. I'm sort of surprised that there, it hasn;t gotten to the point where they make the musicians dress like farmers and bring sheepdogs to lie at their feet.

I see what you mean, assuming the person running the venue is competent. I've seen a plenty who aren't. To the point where one of the few "Irish pubs" in town didn't even bother inviting one of the many local "Irish bands" to play on St. Patrick's. Then again, maybe it didn't affect their bottom line all that much.

Even if they are competent, they tend to rely on "what's always worked for them", which makes them incapable of any sort of evolution.

P.S. Around these parts, the only small (under 500 people) live venues are at pubs, so there's really no escaping this discussion, sadly. I'd be quite happy to forgo it altogether, because, as you mentioned, pubs and music don't mix as well as some people think, unless there's actually some effort to make it work.

[Dagger Gordon]

I'm sort of surprised that there, it hasn;t gotten to the point where they make the musicians dress like farmers and bring sheepdogs to lie at their feet.

Well I'm just the man for that! I've got three sheepdogs. I usually try to tidy up slightly and take off my wellie boots. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong ....

[John Kelly]

How do you manage to keep time without the wellies, Dagger?

[Bertram Henze]

pubs and music don't mix as well as some people think...

This does not apply for the concept of pub sessions, where musicians ostensibly play for themselves and there is not an audience as such. Many of these sessions feature mainly dance tunes, but people applaude anyway after every set, if you play well enough to rock the place.

I've even had girls with dreamy eyes gazing at me, but it's more of a distraction

[catmandu2]

This guy knows how to put it across...

Exhibit A: guitar "yanni" mimicking flamenco, giving the people what they want - a musically vapid but visually flamboyant show (entertainment). The sad thing is - that crowd, and others, go away thinking that this is flamenco.

[Bertram Henze]

"yanni"

The comments on YouTube saw other resemblances...

[Charlieshafer]

Exhibit A: guitar "yanni" mimicking flamenco, giving the people what they want - a musically vapid but visually flamboyant show (entertainment). The sad thing is - that crowd, and others, go away thinking that this is flamenco.

I've always wondered if it matters what the audience thinks they've heard is an accurate representation or not. I think my current way of thinking is I don't care. If they heard enough to make them do some more digging, then the faux-flamenco did it's job well. I think what bugs me is when people try to pass off a given tune's origin or style of playing as actual fact. With genres like old-time, facts are pretty fluid, or outright fabricated, as no one was keeping track during the early days, so statements of originality are wrong. Other than that, nothing bothers me too much of there's a happy audience.

[catmandu2]

I agree with you on those terms. But as one interested in the music, you knew I had to say it . I'd speculate that any student of flamenco would want to point it out.

Your first sentence is evocative - does it matter? The tourists are being entertained; innocent enough, I guess.
Although we understand the world, it's not as though we don't want to try to change it.

*Re, does it matter?

Obliquely, I think, there is always concern when the masses are moved by spectacle and illusion, rather than by substance.

[Bertram Henze]

The tourists are being entertained

I don't think these are tourists in the strict sense - the video was made in Landshut, Bavaria, Germany; medium-sized towns like this are frequently used as shopping venues by the inhabitants of the mainly rural surrounding area who take a half day off from cow dung and milk containers
The musician is a Russian (Rasputin has survived, apparently), so nothing in this video is even remotely Spanish

[catmandu2]

The comments on YouTube saw other resemblances...

Well I'm not begrudging the presentation nor the enterprise, necessarily; by "yanni" I'm referring to the musical content and its commercial niche. I've avoided the perpetual arguments on ffora (where there are plenty of flamenco puros) and elsewhere concerning authenticity and so forth. Only wanted to point out that flamenco is more than noodling on a guitar fitted with golpeadors. Fwiw

[Charlieshafer]

Now it gets fun, because it's all philosophical. So the question with no answer is: If a musical piece is performed "in the style of" but without accurate technique and structure, is it no longer a serious piece? Is crossing genres legitimate stylistically in an of itself, or is it just a novelty piece?

On the second question, I do believe cross-genre music is legitimate, but it's easy to become a novelty piece. William Russo's "Three Pieces For Blues Band and Symphony Orchestra" was really neat-o to me when I first heard it. A month later I just thought it was trying way to hard to be cool, so I'm putting that in the novelty bin. How about The Nice's (Keith Emerson's first band) doing a rock version of a Brandenburg Concerto and Sibelius' Karelie Suite? It's sort of silly, but then, it wasn't trying to be anything other than what it was, so maybe that's stays out of the bin.

A couple of folks here suggested that Ana was either under-performing, or overdoing it. That's a good question. Classical players have been taught to really sell the emotive parts for performance pieces, so much so that in the case of violin soloists, the Strad wrote a lengthy editorial imploring all the soloists to cut the crap and just play without the acting.

So I guess everything is just a fine line, and it's a skill you'd better master.

[catmandu2]

Now it gets fun, because it's all philosophical. So the question with no answer is: If a musical piece is performed "in the style of" but without accurate technique and structure, is it no longer a serious piece? Is crossing genres legitimate stylistically in an of itself, or is it just a novelty piece?

Me, I would say "in the style of..." I believe anything can be "serious," however, and wouldnt base qualification on any of the above criteria, necessarily.

*thinking...

So I noodle around (and study elements of tradition) on the guzheng. To a lay-listener, it sounds like I'm playing TCM, but I would hasten to say that I am not playing TCM - as I haven't found a source of study yet, and I'm just improvizing.

Why is this so important to me - to clarify to the listener the distinction? I suppose I want to educate the listener, to the degree that I'm capable (?) In so doing, pointing out my own shortcomings in formal elements, I'm hopeful - and engaged with the listener in the mutual pursuit - that listener would seek the beauty and offerings of the nuance of form and elements in tradition. I suppose I would do the same in conversation with an attendee of the guitar performer. This doesn't necessarily negate any of the potential of the event at hand, btw. I guess I'm a bit of analyzer by nature.

[JeffD]

I think, there is always concern when the masses are moved by spectacle and illusion, rather than by substance.

The last time this wasn't true was, ummm ... lemme think.... oh yea, it never wasn't true.