Piezzo Pickups; Have They Improved ? (NMC)

[Ray(T)]

Dusted off my old Martin D18 yesterday and decided to see how it sounded plugged in. I've not plugged it in for years as it has a 3.5mm Switchcraft socket and I couldn't find a suitable lead. Anyhow, I plugged it into my Acoustic Image combo through a Sansamp Para-Driver preamp and, with very little tweaking, it sounded half decent - certainly better than the last time I tried it; probably in the days before acoustic amps!

This got me thinking as to how (or whether) modern day piezzo pickups compare (are better) than those first generation ones some of us bought. The pickup in the Martin is a Barcus Berry which I simply glued with epoxy (as you did!), to the bridge plate, 40+ years ago. Just a little sliver of black plastic about an inch long and 3/16 inch wide.

I hate to think how much it cost me in todays money.

[almeriastrings]

The answer is "not really". There have been a few improvements resulting in better consistency of the base material, but the really big improvement has been that of understanding the best kind of input circuits to use with them. The very early (e.g., Barcus Berry) preamps were on the right track (a single high impedance FET transistor) but now we know a lot more about optimum impedances, headroom requirements, special processing and so on to make them sound much better.

[colorado_al]

I think the real improvement has been in pre-amps to go with them. I think a lot of people would get a piezo installed and then plug it in directly to their amp and let it quack away. Now many use (or should use) a good DI for impedance matching and will get much better sound, even with a piezo from 30 years ago.

[Ray(T)]

I suspected as much, so it's largely down to the Sansamp, which has an input impedance of 4.7 Meg., then. I remember dismembering one of their early "preamps" with a electronics-wiz friend at the time and being struck with how little there was in the box - simply a FET buffer. I assume I was lucky with the positioning of the pickup.

Come to think of it, I remember a " build your own electric guitar" magazine article back in the 60s which was based on a telephone handset - basically a piezzo pickup.

[Tavy]

Just to add that depending how much you used, epoxy probably wasn't the best glue to use, these days super glue (gel) would probably produce a truer result... other than that I know nothing about how the piezo tech has changed if at all. That said, epoxy probably has a longer lifespan than superglue which can often be brittle

[sblock]

The piezo material (PZT) has not changed in all these years. As others have said - correctly! - the main improvement has come from the pre-amps, which require very high input impedance and lots of headroom to do a faithful job. I don't think it matters much whether you used epoxy or of cyanoacrylate glue to hold it on, either, so long as the layer was reasonably thin.

The final considerations are the size, shape, and placement of the piezo pickup. These all have a significant effect on sound. My own inclination, if I were starting from scratch -- which you're not! -- would be to go with a rounder pickup shape, and not a 1" x 3/16" rectangle, and to try some positions elsewhere before deciding on a permanent location (although somewhere on the bridge plate is a very popular spot for a guitar). But if you are happy with the sound on your guitar, just declare victory and move on! ;-)

[Br1ck]

I happen to live close to a true pickup wizard, Teddy Randazzo, who started out many years ago trying to refine the FRAP pickup concept. Not getting the results he wanted, he started clean and developed what is now the Dazzo pickup, which I now have in five guitars. The main distinguishing factor from something like a K&K is he makes pickups with varying degrees of bass response, so once you have the correct pickups for your instrument, you need no EQ. None. Plug into a 1MEG ohm or higher device and play.

There is also some sound generated from the sides of the pickup. Multi source systems using a high quality mic with a piezo can be very realistic, but for my needs, the Dazzos work fine. Bummer that they can only be fixed to the top of the front plate of a mandolin. I may put them in my Arches kit build before gluing the top but it would be a roll of the dice.

Other really good products come from Trance Audio and Pickup the World. It seems like the SF Bay area is a hotbed of innovation.

If you like what you hear, play your guitar.

Shout out to the RedEye preamps, but like in all cases, garbage in, garbage out.

[Ray(T)]

Just to add that depending how much you used, epoxy probably wasn't the best glue to use, these days super glue (gel) would probably produce a truer result... other than that I know nothing about how the piezo tech has changed if at all. That said, epoxy probably has a longer lifespan than superglue which can often be brittle

It was the mid 1970s and I'm not sure if Superglue was available or even around in those days. I'm aware that they did upgrade the pickup shortly afterwards and encapsulated the piezzo element in wood. I have one of those kicking around somewhere!

[Johnny60]

On a related topic, I have a qUick question for those in the know. My guitarist nephew recently got himself a Seymour Duncan sound hole pickup - one of those creamy-White bars that sits across the soundhole with individual pole pieces in it. He reckoned it sounded great (it didn't). At his insistence I put it on my D28 and played a few chords and runs - it was truly awful. Really quacky, and the treble strings were significantly louder than the 4 wound strings (I use Martin SP phosphor bronze 12s). It was plugged straight into an acoustic amp but sounded crap.

Is this the fault of the pickup, or is it the fact that it was plugged straight into an amp?

Thanks

Johnny

[Ray(T)]

I suspect that it's designed for steel rather than bronze strings with which only the cores are being picked up by the magnets in the pickup.

Solution? - either change th strings or the pickup to something like a Fishman rare earth which is designed for bronze strings.

[colorado_al]

On a related topic, I have a qUick question for those in the know. My guitarist nephew recently got himself a Seymour Duncan sound hole pickup - one of those creamy-White bars that sits across the soundhole with individual pole pieces in it. He reckoned it sounded great (it didn't). At his insistence I put it on my D28 and played a few chords and runs - it was truly awful. Really quacky, and the treble strings were significantly louder than the 4 wound strings (I use Martin SP phosphor bronze 12s). It was plugged straight into an acoustic amp but sounded crap.

Is this the fault of the pickup, or is it the fact that it was plugged straight into an amp?

Thanks

Johnny

I also think those are magnetic pickups. I think they are adjustable though, allowing you to move the pole closer or farther from each string. Would still benefit from a good DI/Preamp.

[Bertram Henze]

Didn't know they make pickups in Piezzo, Salerno, Italy

[Ray(T)]

Thought they were from Piza?

OK "Piezo" then.

[StuartE]

It was the mid 1970s and I'm not sure if Superglue was available or even around in those days. I'm aware that they did upgrade the pickup shortly afterwards and encapsulated the piezzo element in wood. I have one of those kicking around somewhere!

Superglue was discovered/invented in the 1940s and first sold commercially in 1958. Quite widely promoted by the 1970s.

[pops1]

On a related topic, I have a qUick question for those in the know. My guitarist nephew recently got himself a Seymour Duncan sound hole pickup - one of those creamy-White bars that sits across the soundhole with individual pole pieces in it. He reckoned it sounded great (it didn't). At his insistence I put it on my D28 and played a few chords and runs - it was truly awful. Really quacky, and the treble strings were significantly louder than the 4 wound strings (I use Martin SP phosphor bronze 12s). It was plugged straight into an acoustic amp but sounded crap.



Is this the fault of the pickup, or is it the fact that it was plugged straight into an amp?

Thanks

Johnny

Use something like a GHS white bronze or any electric string in the gauge you want and it will sound waaayyyy better. These are magnetic and only pick up the core of a bronze string. White bronze are magnetic and a great acoustic string.