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Thread: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

  1. #1
    Registered User Walt's Avatar
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    Default Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I thought I'd share my recent experience with Liquid Hide Glue. I replaced my fingerboard a few months ago, and I ordered a bottle before I took the time to do much research. Before I installed the fingerboard, I did some reading here on the Cafe message board and the consensus from builders seemed to be that it was not suitable for musical instrument construction or repair. However, few people had actually tried LHG, and there was a study posted that indicated that it would perform ok if used properly. The I've-already-bought-the-stuff-surely-it-will-work bias is real, y'all.
    I thought to myself, "I'll try it out. The worst thing that could happen is the fingerboard will pop off." And it did:

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    For the specifics: My bottle did not have an expiration date printed on it (apparently they stopped doing that). It did have a code (A703230120). If that code indicates a date, I was unable to find anything from Titebond explaining it. I did however do the test recommended by the manufacturer (smear the glue on paper, bake at X degrees for X minutes, and see if it comes out brittle). It passed the test. I glued the fingerboard inside my home, the ambient temperature was around 70 degrees. The fingerboard was clamped for 24+ hours.
    It held up fine for a few months, but I played an outdoor gig in Louisiana last week (super, super humid) and noticed some glue coming out from the side of the fretboard. I opened my case a few days later, and discovered that the treble side of the board had popped off.
    If anyone is thinking about trying the Liquid Hide Glue, maybe they'll find this post helpful.

    I'm going to glue it back up with Titebond Original. Any tips for cleaning up old hide glue before regluing?

  2. #2
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    You can try warm/hot water on a rag so soften the glue. I generally use a cabinet scraper to clean off the old stuff. I prefer the scraper to sanding as I can get a better flat surface from a scraper.
    Just off now to glue on a fiddle fingerboard which got detached by its owner a few days ago. I am using hide glue, but not the liquid type from titebond!
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Well in defense of the stuff, finish will protect the joints from the sweat coming from your hand and getting into a glue joint. I noticed a lack of finish on the neck thus exposing the glue joint to moisture.

    It may be great glue but I think it needs to be protected from moisture, as do most glues.

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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I actually used the stuff, before I knew I shouldn't, to glue on a violin fingerboard. Fifteen years later, it's still just fine. YMMV.

    I think your problem was more related to the "super super humid" conditions than to the glue itself. The same thing would have probably happened with HHG. Any protein based glue is going to be very hygroscopic. That being said, of course it is self evident that Liquid Hide Glue is inferior to HHG by its very nature. The chemicals used to keep it liquid at room temperature are detrimental to its composition and affect its holding power.

    I like Titebond Original. Some talk about "creep" but I have never observed a problem with it. While not waterproof, it is not hygroscopic. It resists things like humid conditions much better than hide glue. Of course violin makers wouldn't be caught dead with the stuff! With them it's hide glue or nothing.

    I like the approach Gibson uses in their Montana acoustic guitar shop. Everything is Titebond except the dovetail neck joint, which is hot hide glue. That way, everything stays together nicely but the neck joint came easily be released by steam if a neck reset is ever needed. Not sure if Gibson mandolins are made the same way.
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    ...Any tips for cleaning up old hide glue before regluing?
    De-Glue Goo

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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I am a believer in HHG, for areas that have the potential to be glued several times in the life of an instrument. It is the only glue that will bond to itself. Scraping off old glue is necessary with any glue, but you can't easily remove the glue that has seeped into the wood, which is how it bonds. I may be wrong, but to me that means every time you glue with another glue the joint gets weaker. With HHG you should have the pretty much the same strength in the bond.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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  12. #7

    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I had a bad experience with the liquid hide glue many years ago building a guitar with it before the internet and when there was not a lot of information around. It came apart on a hot day. I used it for one other non musical instrument project since in an experiment. That time I heated it up and it seems to have worked much better but at that point you might as well use the real stuff.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    ...you can't easily remove the glue that has seeped into the wood, which is how it bonds...
    Glue bonds in two main ways:
    1. Molecular bond
    2. Physical bond

    Of the two, the molecular bond is by far the strongest. The glue that seeps into the wood and dries constitutes the physical bond and that is not where the real strength of the glue joint lies.
    (Molecular adhesion vs cohesion properties and so forth of various glues and adhesives affect how the joint should be prepared and executed, but that is for a different discussion. In this case, cleaning off as much of the old glue as practical is all that can be done, and it needs to be done. A second glue joint is seldom as good as a well executed first glue joint, but as long as the joint is well cleaned, subsequent joints are not necessarily inferior to the second joint.)

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    Registered User Frank Ford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    . . . Any tips for cleaning up old hide glue before regluing?
    I'd say the best plan is to scrape the surfaces completely clean to the wood.

    If I'm interpreting the photo correctly, it looks like there is a lot of stringy glue showing in the joint. Hide glue MUST be very well clamped to work properly since is has so little cohesive strength. When such joints come apart there is little or no visible glue present because the glue line is so thin when full clamping pressure is used.

    Aliphatic resin is also subject to failure for the same reasons if not fully clamped.

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  18. #10
    Mandolin & Mandola maker
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    What Frank said.

    Many years ago when I didn't know anything better I made a couple of mandolins and some fingerboards that were glued with liquid hide glue. One mandolin was left in the back of a car on a sunny day. The finish melted and glued the bridge to the top, but apart from that the mandolin held together just fine. I re-finished it and it is still going fine today more than 20 years later. I stopped using it because on some of the fingerboards a line of glue was appearing on the join. Probably due to moisture from hands. Since then I have read about many failures of liquid hide glue. It appears to be related to high humidity (also a problem for fish glue) and using older liquid hide glue, it does have a shelf life. Nowadays I only use it for temporary joins such as gluing shell inlay before tracing around it and shelf life doesn't matter for that.
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  19. #11
    Registered User Frank Ford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I made this one in 1972, and like all 40 instruments from that period, with 100% liquid hide glue:

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    No joint failure anywhere, nor anywhere on any of the 40-plus instruments we made during that period - all with Franklin liquid hide glue.

    Then, with no warning, I got a bad bottle. Glue joints failed immediately, but without the stringy appearance - they just let go. I quit using the stuff for decades, fearing I'd have problems. Now that it's age-dated, I don't worry so much, so I use liquid hide glue only for those applications where it's too difficult to use traditional hot hide glue.

  20. #12
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ford View Post
    I made this one in 1972, and like all 40 instruments from that period, with 100% liquid hide glue:

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    No joint failure anywhere, nor anywhere on any of the 40-plus instruments we made during that period - all with Franklin liquid hide glue.

    Then, with no warning, I got a bad bottle. Glue joints failed immediately, but without the stringy appearance - they just let go. I quit using the stuff for decades, fearing I'd have problems. Now that it's age-dated, I don't worry so much, so I use liquid hide glue only for those applications where it's too difficult to use traditional hot hide glue.
    I'm actually happy to hear that. A friend of mine cornered the market on buying vintage parlor guitars with the bridge loose several years ago. Had maybe 10. I did them all with liquid hide glue. I have one upstairs that has been working fine for years and I know where most of the other ones went and they didn't have any problems as far as I know. I would have heard because none of us would let the other get away without some abuse. I pretty much stopped using the stuff after hearing people say how weak it was. Heck, I glued a basket case Oahu that was in pieces that had been in a hot attic back together with it and it's still holding. Preparation and clamping is everything.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  21. #13
    Registered User Frank Ford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    . . .Preparation and clamping is everything.
    AMEN, bro!
    Last edited by MikeEdgerton; Aug-19-2017 at 10:38pm. Reason: fixed quote syntax

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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Fine woodworking periodically does tests of common woodworking glues. Some years back in one such test they compared HHG and the franklin liquid hide glues: Their tests concluded that the liquid stuff was equally as strong as HHG. The main difference being the open working time. I completely rebuilt an 1880's German flatback upright bass using the liquid hide glue : cleated cracks, linings , neck joint etc......this was in about 1995. I did keep it in a warm water bath while in use, but I did appreciate the longer open working times, especially when gluing the top and back to the rim. Here we are 22 years later and the bass has held up through fickle New England climate for all that time.

  23. #15
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Sometimes I wonder if the issues with the modern glues aren't more related to the user's assumption that gluing is easier with the new stuff. Thus, taking short cuts may be common place, thinking the new glues can do wonders.

  24. #16
    Registered User Frank Ford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I'd say you're right about that, although the heat issue remains. Hide glue doesn't flow readily when a cured joint is heated, say, in a hot parked car. There is some question among some of us about the ultimate heat resistance of liquid hide because of the gel extenders, but it's nowhere near the problem we see with aliphatic resin glue.

    With heat stress, a fingerboard glued with aliphatic resin can slide almost imperceptibly, allowing the neck to warp seriously under string tension, and when heat is removed, it can stay "set" in a bad forward curve. I find this to be the most serious issue on mandolins because of the high tension combined with such a small gluing surface area.

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  26. #17
    Registered User Walt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Thanks all for the comments on this. I re-glued the board with Titebond Original. I also left the locating pins in place this time; mostly because I didn't want to remove frets, but partly because I hoped it might mitigate creeping issues. I also used more clamping pressure than last time in case that was an issue.
    We'll see how it holds up in the Louisiana swamps.
    It's still odd to me that my bottle doesn't have an expiration date. Has anyone else bought a bottle recently? Does it have a date? Maybe some unscrupulous seller scrubbed the date off an expired bottle.

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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Thanks all for the comments on this. I re-glued the board with Titebond Original. I also left the locating pins in place this time; mostly because I didn't want to remove frets, but partly because I hoped it might mitigate creeping issues. I also used more clamping pressure than last time in case that was an issue.
    We'll see how it holds up in the Louisiana swamps.
    It's still odd to me that my bottle doesn't have an expiration date. Has anyone else bought a bottle recently? Does it have a date? Maybe some unscrupulous seller scrubbed the date off an expired bottle.
    About the date of the glue. I have a small brown plastic squeeze bottle that I bought from Cliff's Hardware on High Street in Columbus, OH -- no date on the bottle but I would have bought it in the spring of 1973. I used it to glue some oak chairs and table that we bought at an antique shop. They were still glued tight when we gave the table and chairs to the Vietnam Veterans thrift shop in about 2010. What is more if you put a small bead of this glue on a piece of wax paper and leave it for a day or so in the winter it will form an brown crystalline ball that shatters like glass if you strike it with a hammer. I still use that glue from time to time but on things like mandolins. Just saying.
    Last edited by Bernie Daniel; Aug-24-2017 at 7:51pm.
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  29. #19
    Registered User Walt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    What is more if you put a small bead of this glue on a piece of wax paper and leave it for a day or so in the winter it will form an brown crystalline ball that shatters like glass if you strike it with a hammer. I still use that glue from time to time but on one things like mandolins. Just saying.
    I can't recall the exact details of the manufacturer's recommended test, but it involved putting a drop on wax paper and baking at a low temp (~200 degrees) for 30 or 40 minutes).

  30. #20
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I bought a bottle about 5 years ago. Then I saw the discussion here about expiration dates and saw that it was past the expiration date when I bought it, so I threw it out. I bought another bottle about 3 years ago. None of the bottles there had expiration dates. I threw it out about 6 months ago. I never glued anything with either bottle. Wish I had heard the positive experiences first. Of course, it figures that the the stuff must work pretty much as advertised or they wouldn't still be selling it after all these years.
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  31. #21
    Registered User Walt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I found some info regarding the bottle date. They indeed stopped printing an expiration date on the bottle. The alphanumeric code, however, provides the manufacture date. Here's an explanation of how to read the code:

    The first digit represents A for America (made in), the second digit is the last digit of the year of manufacture, the third and fourth digits represent the month, the fifth and sixth digits represent the day of the month and the last four digits represent the lot number. Example: A904270023 – This material was manufactured on April 27, 2009

    My number is A703230120, which places it at either March 23, 2007 , or March 23, 2017 (which is much more likely).

  32. #22

    Default Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue Result

    I replace my Titebond every year at the same time, it's cheap enough. Thanks for the date code info.

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